Let's Talk Income Protection

Keep Britain Working - The Conversation

• Income Protection Task Force • Season 2 • Episode 9

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The Keep Britain Working report lays out a stark reality: the UK is losing working-age people to ill health at scale, and it is impacting households, employers, and the wider economy. In this final episode of Season 2, we unpack what the report says, what needs to change, and why staying connected to work is often better than falling out of it entirely.  

Stevie and Matt are joined by three expert guests: Dr Julie Denning (Working to Wellbeing, Chair of the Vocational Rehabilitation Association), Monica Garcia (MT Consulting, Trustee of the Vocational Rehabilitation Association), and Roy McLoughlin (Protection Distributors Group). Together they explore how early intervention, vocational rehabilitation, and the modern income protection proposition can help more people stay in meaningful work and reduce long-term absence.

Key learnings from this episode: 

  • Why the report is action-focused and what it is trying to unlock next (frameworks, evidence, and delivery)
  • Early intervention in practice, including how it shows up across both group and individual income protection
  • The value of proportional benefits and alternative roles: “can’t do your job” does not mean “can’t work”  

To read the Keep Britain Working report, use this link, or search “Keep Britain Working report”.  

📣 Send the podcast your questions, thoughts or advice to feature on a future episode via:

Voice notes via SpeakPipe
Or email Info@IPTF.co.uk

📣 For More Education, Collaboration and Insight:

IPTF Website
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IP Task Force on Instagram

Produced and edited by SEA Studios

SPEAKER_04:

Hello and welcome to Let's Talk Income Protection Season 2, Episode 9, our final episode of the season. Where has the time gone, listeners? But fear not, we will be back for season three next year. So stay tuned for more info on that at the end of the episode. Now, this is the podcast that breaks down everything you need to know about income protection. Whether you're an experienced advisor or just starting out, we'll give you actionable insights, expert interviews, and of course, valuable, unstructured CPD points. And as usual, I'm joined by my partner in crime, the protection coach Matt Chapman. Hello, Matt. How are you, Stevie? Good to see you. Yeah, I can't believe we're we're at the end of the season. But uh yeah, we've got a fascinating report to dive into today. We are talking about the Keep Britain Working Report, which is a major piece of work looking at why so many people are falling out of work due to ill health and what needs to change to help people stay in, return to, or thrive in work. The UK is experiencing a record rise in economic inactivity due to ill health. Over one in five working-age adults are out of the workforce, a huge drain on the economy, employers, and households. And this report is the strongest government-backed argument in years. It highlights that the UK needs early intervention, employers' support is inadequate, financial stability plus rehab is essential. Health and employment systems must integrate, and staying connected to work is better than falling out of it. Well, joining Matt and I in discussing this report are three excellent guests to help break down what this actually means for the insurance industry. We have Dr. Julie Denning, founder of Working to Wellbeing, and chair of the Vocational Rehabilitation Association, and a chartered health psychologist and CBT therapist. We also have Monica Garcia, Director of MG Consulting and a trustee of the Vocational Rehabilitation Association. And finally, Roy McLaughlin, board director of the Protection Distributors Group. Welcome to you all.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you. Good to be here. Thanks, Mrs. TV.

SPEAKER_04:

But first of all, let's set the scene of and talk about what this report is. Julie, could you start off start off by explaining what the Keat Britain Working Report is? What is it hoping to achieve and why is it important now?

SPEAKER_00:

Three really good questions. Well, the the final report came out only a week or two ago on the 5th of November, and that was following a discovery um document that was presented to us around about springtime this year. And basically it's kind of that understanding of we've got huge economic inactivity in this country due to health-related problems and as well as disability, and they are two separate things that we need to be considering. And we've just got alarming rates of people falling out of work and they're not looking for work either. So at the moment we've got 800,000 more people out of work now since 2019, and that's set to grow by 2030 by another 600,000. And these kind of numbers are really quite startling, they're going in the wrong direction, we're not keeping up with our European um uh compatriots. Um, and it's going to have a massive impact on our economy, it's having a massive impact on individual workers, and it's having massive impacts on on um employers as well. So there's this kind of growing problem that actually everybody is affected by one way or another. And it's a question of like, what do we do next? And I think the Mayfield Review was really trying to be quite action-oriented. They didn't want to create a whole list of recommendations, like 25 of them or whatever, and just hope for the best. It was very much sort of an action-oriented report, as I understand it, trying to ascertain what the root causes were and then what we can actually do. So what's quite interesting in terms of explaining why the problem is is occurring due to inactivity and the costs to everybody, they outlined that there were three kind of underpinning causes of this, and they identify them as like a culture of fear, and that's fear from both the employee not feeling comfortable disclosing their health condition or their disability or what their needs are, but also employers fearing that conversation. Like, how do we go about it as a practicality? But you know, what the legal implications and this kind of reticence, therefore, to kind of get involved in a conversation about what's needed. So you've got that backdrop of fear, but there's also they identified there's a problem of um effective or consistent support. So they noticed across the country they went and spoke to many, many employers of different sizes across um all four corners of the um of the country and identified that actually there's nothing consistent, they couldn't get good data out, they could it was nothing reliable, but there were some pockets of truly excellent work, so things were working, but there's lots of inefficient inefficiencies, inconsistencies, and lack of data, and we need that information to be able to then provide consistent support that everybody can access. And it was also referring to like structural changes, so we need to enable disabled workers to actually get back into work, and at the moment they're facing an awful lot of barriers one way or another. So we've got these kind of root causes, and what they identified is that there needs to be three changes, three deliverables really that need to be actioned. So they identified um a healthy working lifestyle, which is basically trying to create a framework for employers to um work through. And they described kind of an in-depth life cycle starting right at the beginning when someone joins an organization and they're you know being recruited, and what you do to prevent uh you know, uh, the the negative impact of health and ill health and disability showing up in the workplace, what can we do very early doors to support people once they start working with us or working with organizations and then the organizations, and then various different points where someone might be healthy at work and living well with their condition or not being unwell, but then they might progress through the lifespan and they may become ill. And what does the workplace need to do to help someone stay at work? Prevention is quite an interesting word that's used throughout the document, and I think there's prevention in terms of preventing ill health, but there's also prevention of people falling out of work, and I think that's quite an important differentiation and where employer's um responsibility lays, but also there's this sense of tripartite, so the employer's responsible, but actually the employees responsible too for looking after their health. So you see that kind of in this healthy working lifestyle, this this management kind of between employer and employee. They're thinking about workplace health provision, what that looks like to try and get a consistency of standard um and trying to understand what that that is. And in order to be able to get that consistency, it's about understanding the data. So we've got very data poor at the moment. So they're trying to set up um a workplace health intelligence unit to collect that data, which can then um inform um the sorts of interventions that need to take place because there's a whole raft of money being spent on well-being, but actually, it's not shifting the dial. So it's like what's going wrong here. So trying to understand that data and trying to make it as easy as possible then for employers to buy in the right services so they'll have a framework to work from, but they can still be innovative within that so they can work out what their employ what their they need as an organization and what's going to best support their employees. So I think at the moment there's a lot of worry about employers cracking going cracking, what do we need to do? And I almost start saying, Don't worry at this point, because I think that's what they're trying to do next. They're setting up this vanguard process to understand what needs to be put into place with some strong robust evidence and a and a good framework for employers to work from and employees to understand what their role is in the process, too. So it's watching this space over basically anywhere between a three and a seven year period, but as this gets rolled out and we start to just watch the space and see how the uh the information comes out. So it's exciting times, I think.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, and and thank you, Julie, for for a very detailed uh overview there of the report. It sets us up very nicely for the rest of the episode. I I think for for me, one of the most potent parts of the report, and you just mentioned there is uh you know how plainly it lays out the scale of people falling out of the work and it's and it's getting worse uh because of ill health. Um, but crucially it says that this is inevitable. You know, other countries you know keep people engaged with work far more effectively. You know, the UK system is often too reactive and too fragmented, especially with people with long-term conditions. Um Monica, how how does income protection how does the income protection proposition already address some of these issues?

SPEAKER_01:

Thanks, Stevie. Um, yeah, look, when when I read that report, I thought, gosh, we've got so many learnings to share here, you know, from how the income protection sector, you know, has understood, you know, the barriers that people face, you know, when they fall out of work due to ill health. They do receive their income protection, which many, many years ago it was a sort of passive contract, if you want. You know, your claim was paid and then off you go, you were sort of left alone. Propositions have evolved over time. And now we are in a place where most insurers provide some subform of value-added services, um, support for customers. Um, what we understood as well, and this would be really good, I think, to share in that workplace health provision framework where income protection actually is mentioned, you know, in ways to explore existing mechanisms and learnings of what works, is the concept obviously of early intervention. I know we have some constraints and barriers around different deferment periods and in the individual income protection side, it can be tricky to put in place. However, I have seen that many insurers now are adopting a sort of early connection approach with customers, where at the point of notification, we are now exploring and connecting with them at a personal level and understanding what their circumstances are, what existing support mechanisms they have in place, and what are the gaps? You know, what is it that they need? So these support mechanisms can actually be personalized for them. So, what we're noticing as well, and this is mentioned in the report, is um what Julie alluded to as well, is the issue around fear from both sides, employees and employers. And um I know Julie's gonna tell us in a in a bit about vocational rehabilitation, but I think where we have seen successes around supporting customers through the return to health and work journey is where workplace issues are the say the um perpetuating and maintaining factors. So I think allowing that communication, you know, working with the employer, with the line managers to put in place those workplace adjustments, that is invaluable. Now, bringing it back again to individual income protection products and self-employed customers, for example, that's absolutely crucial. I know the report focuses more on employers of different sizes and SMEs. But for self-employed people, individual income protection um products are an absolute safe and um, you know, lifesaver at the moment. You know, where else are they gonna find this additional support, you know, this empathy now that is coming across in many, many ways? You know, we have so many case studies to share. So I'm really optimistic about it. I think we've got, you know, we have to iron a few bits and pieces, as the report mentions as well, around consistency, evidence-based approaches, what works, and having that biopsychosocial, holistic framework, you know, of understanding the person from that individual experience.

SPEAKER_04:

Thanks, Monica. Yeah, as you mentioned, you know, and it it does highlight this clearly in the report, there's there's a lot of shared responsibility and you know, teamwork in a way that needs to happen, you know, between the government, employees, and individuals who all have a part to play. And when you read it through that lens, you can see how income protection is is sits right in the middle of that solution. You know, it provides that financial stability, but increasingly the rehab and return to work support baked into IP is just as important. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, Stevie, I wanted to add something else actually, which I think it's is it's really key in terms of learning what models work. And the IP proposition has something called proportional benefit payments or rehab payments as well. And I think this is really key when we're thinking about how do we enable people with uh illnesses or health conditions or or injuries where they are unable to return to their usual occupation. So it's supporting them with exploring an alternative suitable occupation where they can fulfill their vocational aspirations and um potential. I think to me that is fantastic, and that's something we we need to shout a lot louder, you know, from an IP proposition perspective. You know, if you can't do your job never again, you know, that doesn't mean you can't work in doing something else and you you're gonna get that top up, you know, in your IP benefit. I think that that is magnificent. And yeah, we need to be proud of that.

SPEAKER_03:

I think that's a really important point, Monica, because I actually don't believe for a minute that people don't want to work. And it was really important what Julie said about that report was interesting actually, because it says a lot of people aren't returning to work. And I wonder if that's because we've created a system that if someone finds themselves incapable of doing the specific job that they've trained to do, that they find themselves in a situation where suddenly their value as an employee starts to degrade and they feel that they can't go back to work. So I think you're absolutely right. One of the key benefits that income protection can offer, ignoring the fact that naturally someone's investing in their own financial resilience and it they're they're fulfilling that obligation that they've got for their own sort of well-being and health, and like we said, taking responsibility for themselves. I do think that's a really important point because IP provides that vehicle to enable people to go back to some sort of meaningful work, even if it's at a reduced rate of income. Because I think a lot of this is, and we've go back to the mental health point. I've actually made loads of notes, which we'll go through in a bit. But one of the interesting things about the kind of mental health concerns is that I think a lot of people's worth, their own sensation or their own feeling of self-worth is governed by their ability to do things like work and generate an income. Rightly or wrongly, we've created a system where actually that that there's that connection between the two things. And I do think it's a really important point to support and facilitate people to go back to work. And I really think you're absolutely right, Monica, that's where income protection has a huge tick in the box.

SPEAKER_04:

100%, Matt. Um, Roy, I want to bring you in here. From your perspective, why is income protection such an important part of the solution to the challenges raised in the Keebren Working Report?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, great question. I mean, listen, I've sat in a lot of rooms over years with lots of stakeholders where I've walked out of rooms and felt quite depressed about the role that we have. But this is a bit of a seize of day moment for me because for the first time for a very, very long time, you might argue ever, I actually think that we're part and we are integral to the solution that this report is asking the question of. Okay, and there are a few different areas that I'd like to explain my answer on. The first one is financial education, and it mentions this in the report quite a lot. And uh, as someone who regularly talks to lots of groups of people um running surgeries and staff meetings, the the one thing that always comes up at these meetings is why women we taught this stuff at school. And I think it's so important, as the report suggests, that we somehow bring financial education into school so that when people are coming out, they they they will they will have much more knowledge and that will help. And and this is evidenced by there's there's there's one startling stat that I always quote, which is that one in three mental health issues starts with debt problems, okay? And one of the issues that we've got is that too many people are coming out and having debt, particularly in their 20s, right, and not knowing how to deal with it. So I think that's a really good thing about the report. But let's move on to uh let's move on to income protection. I think we just need to be careful of mentioning the product, uh, because uh my experience of of government is that if we start talking or pushing product, we have a problem. But the solution for me is is early intervention, okay? And this is something that I've I've I've had the privilege of witnessing uh a lot over the years. Now, initially people said early intervention is all about the workplace, and Monica makes a fantastic point about the point of notification. A HR department probably would be able to uh uh to identify something uh there's an issue with somebody and talk about the early intervention services that some of the group people make. But but actually, what lots of our listeners might not realize is that early intervention is actually as prolific in the individual side, and actually there are approximately 30 early intervention services across all the insurance companies. So all the insurance companies on the individual income protection have early intervention services, okay? But to Monica's point, how are we telling our customers about this? Because the point of notification is therefore reliant on the individual. Okay. Now, as an aside to that, okay, we do have an FCA market review coming up soon. And I really hope and I really implore anyone from the FCA that's listening to this to make annual statements mandatory. Because one of the advantages of making annual statements mandatory, Stevie, is that we'll be able to remind people what they have and integral to, as well as the other brilliant things that income protection give you, you have these fantastic services called early intervention services and explain them to people properly. So that's number one. Two is internally to the IFA community. Okay, how many IFAs out there actually appreciate and are able to understand and explain how these early intervention services work on individual income protection policies. And I think what Mayfield should be is hopefully a bit of a wake-up call to us internally. I remember I'm an advisor, so I'm uh criticizing myself here to understand fully how these brilliant early intervention services work, but more importantly, then go and uh communicate them to our to our customers. And we have to do this on a regular basis. It's no good just saying you've taken a policy out, you've got these services, and come and see us when you have an issue. People forget about this stuff, right? So I think the communication, the regular communication of this message is really important. Because if we can do that, okay, alongside the financial education, uh, what we can therefore prove is that some of these services are actually life-changing, right? And will get people back to work, okay. And I totally agree with what Matt says. And I mean this apolitically, I hasten to add, I believe that people in this country want to work. I genuinely believe that. And when I see figures of 2.8 million people on income support and 10 million people on benefits, okay, I just think that there's something, something going wrong here. We we need to help people get back to work. So if we can do that, uh and by use of the excellent ancillary services of early intervention, but also you know, things like second opinion services, virtual GPs, rehab, vocational rehabilitation, you know, all of those things, I really think that we can help here. And I think, going back to my original point, that suddenly governments and trade bodies and ABIs and all of those people will actually go, do you know what? The visors are integral to the solution. That's my seize the day moment.

SPEAKER_03:

Can't argue with a single thing you're saying. And I think what's really interesting is this idea of financial education. Because at the end of the day, let's think about it logically for a second. And you're absolutely right, Roy. Most young people are finding themselves in significant debt. They don't even understand these products exist, they don't understand the benefit of these things. But if you were to say to a young person, let's look at proportionally what it costs to ensure your income when you're very young and you first start out on that journey. And thankfully, at this stage, hopefully, you've got no pre existing conditions or any mental health concerns at this stage. Actually, the investment in ring fencing your income at a young age would be negligible compared to what it is you're earning. And actually, if we could just encourage people to think about this, which is all right, well, you get a job, well, the first thing you do is ring fence your income sources because it's a fractional investment in safeguarding your future. In all of your financial goals. And that forms part of financial education.

SPEAKER_02:

Just to add to what Matt's saying there, Stevie, I would add that the game changer for me, uh, very ironically, is COVID. Okay. I think that what's happened is that people suddenly out there are not as indestructible as they thought they were before. And actually, what Matt is is quite rightly arguing is that people will suddenly realize that they have to do something. Now, why is that important? Again, going back to Monica's point, about 20% of the population are self-employed, but we also forget, okay, only 8% of employers give uh grouping income protection. So you've got this vast sway of people in the middle, and don't underestimate the the number of one and two person businesses in this country who are too small to get group as well. So, so you know, I totally think uh what uh Matt was saying. I think I think you'll actually get a generation, if they're educated in the right way, that will say, sure, I realize that I have to protect my income. And let's also face it, the taboo subject, which thankfully isn't anymore, is mental health. Okay, we are now all talking about it openly, and that's a good thing. And and I think therefore people will say, if that sort of thing happens to me and my friends or my family or myself, what is what is a way of of of protecting myself against that? It's income protection again.

SPEAKER_01:

Roy, if I if I can just reinforce what you said around annual statements, I think that's such a key message, you know, to our listeners. I see from a claims perspective, many instances where you know your circumstances change, you know, the incomes vary across, you know, your working lifespan. And people often don't understand what they are covered for, and they they had you know a mismatch of expectations. And I think that's absolutely key, you know, going forward. How we're gonna engage with new customers. And I know the IPTF is doing a lot of work, you know, around the education and around these matters, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I think also within this day is is people's understanding of, for example, I was gonna speak to obviously VOC rehab, but it's understanding what that is and what rehabilitation is, for example, because people have a model of rehab, think, oh, it must be, you know, cocaine addiction or alcohol addiction. Yeah, people think of rehab, yeah, that sort of rehab. So they put it in in a certain sort of box. So we've also got to do some education with people across the board, not just the people who receive VOC rehab, but people like advisors and providers of vodka rehab, but what actually it is. So we give people a mental model and a schema in psychological terms of of actually what vocational rehabilitation is, what these things do and how they help. And the case studies that you know you that you guys have got, because I've been you know supporting the insurance industry for a really long time now, one way or another. And there are so many amazing case examples where you can just say, you know, these products have actually been lifesavers, not just financially, um, but but from a health perspective and and supporting people back into work because that health and work link often isn't there either. So having a product like that that joins up all those dots and makes sense. But I think we've got to educate people about what it is so they get it in their minds, so it makes sense to them.

SPEAKER_02:

I couldn't agree more, Julian. I think uh you just hit nail on head, as well as the general public, we need to educate the IFAs as well, because I think if we take a leaf out of the Seven Families book, which obviously Income Protection Force uh uh you know did uh I can't believe I'm even saying this 10 years ago, the awareness wasn't just about the consumer, the customer, the awareness was about the advisory community. And I think you're spot on. I think a lot of advisors will probably find it difficult to explain exactly how vocational rehabilitation, I can't even pronounce it, uh uh uh, you know, works. And I think anecdotes and and and real-life case studies are uh the armory of the advisor to go out and say to people that this stuff actually happens, and this is how this was dealt with. So I think that's you know, you make a very valid point there.

SPEAKER_03:

And I think it's also about adding value, and it's above and beyond, you know, that the in theory, the core benefits. This is something above and beyond just the income protection or the income replacement, so to speak. This is all the stuff that adds the real value that creates well, I I mean, I often refer to income protection as the people's protection, in that it's one of the few products that you've got on the market where actually for the first time you've got the consumer or the policyholders' interest being aligned to the providers because they ultimately want to get people back to work so they can stop having to pay the income benefit, right? So it's one of those wonderful products where it really does serve the policyholder more than the others. And I think you're absolutely right, Roy. This is an educational piece. I mean, when I'm doing my coaching work, a lot of the things I hear are firstly, mental health issues are a problem, which is the first one. So I think as an industry, we do have to tackle that, knowing that we've got a lot more people experiencing mental health concerns, particularly in a post-COVID environment. That's something that we probably need to address as an industry in terms of how we're managing that at the front end to make sure we're not penalising people potentially for at least being honest about those situations and seeking support for that. That's a whole different conversation. But I think for me, there's this really interesting point that you made at the beginning, Julie, around I wrote it down 800,000 more people are becoming active since 2019. And I wonder, is that um a reflection of the COVID world that we lived in and that the impact that that's now had and the snowball effect it's had on workers? But I think that in itself, just that figure alone, think about it logically for a second, tackles that single biggest objection that you get from advisors when I'm talking about income protection, where they go, oh yeah, but people don't want it, they don't need it, they don't see the concerns, they don't think they're gonna have a problem. And you're going, we've had 800,000 more people find themselves inactive. The stats speak for themselves, and this report really does hone in on the idea that, as Roy said, you've got these millions of people out of work. How can you then argue, oh, it's not gonna happen to me, it's not a problem, it's not likely to happen. So we've now got these wonderful touch points, these statistical supports that we can use in having that wider conversation. But as you've rightly said, Julie, Roy, and Monica, that comes down to educating advisors how to explain that to a consumer, how they can provide that financial education. Because we can't just rely on the consumer to go and research this stuff themselves. We've got to know it, and we've got to explain it in layman's terms to consumers so they can see the value and the benefit of taking a plan like this out.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, well, as one of the um parallels I wanted to draw from the report as well is how they emphasize the point of safe and sustained return to work. And I think that's something the income protection sector has understood very well when they were researching what interventions actually work, you know, for our customers. And how can we support that safe when they are ready, you know, and how you build that readiness as well. And then the sustained outcome, because if they drop out of work again, that means you've got a new claim, you know. So if you think about commercial aspects as well. So I think it's just so many areas in the report where I thought we need to have a wider voice, you know, from the sector, you know, in an industry as well. How do we join up together, you know, to share all of the good practice that's already happening?

SPEAKER_00:

It's a really good point though. And actually, just to launch into that, because the government is setting up this unit, the workplace health intelligence unit, it is trying to collect data. And I think to your point, Mon, you know, the ABI put out a fabulous report two years, two and a half years ago now about the value of OCR and the data that sits behind it. And I think what the government, what what the Mayfield Review is trying to do is bring in employers, employees, and the government. That's one thing I didn't mention in my preamble at the beginning. It is about getting that data so you can then send the message to government look, this works, and this is what you need to do. And that's when kind of the financial incentives and the levies kind of come in where you can really go, income protection has got a demonstrable track record of supporting people back into work. And here's the data.

SPEAKER_02:

But it's also very important that we we we represent our our industry and go to government and say, this is about the workplace, yes, but it's also about individuals. And so, you know, that because so few of the workplace are covered, I mean, the number of of uh group income protection schemes is you know is sort of 18,000 a year. I mean, this is it's pretty pitiful. So we've we must make uh representation that there's a far bigger population that need help in terms of this, um, which then goes full circle back to back to the advisors being integral to part of this. And and then and then I think the the report also mentions a sort of return on investment, which always sounds a very dirty expression, doesn't it? But but effectively the return on investment is such that if we can get these vast numbers back to work, okay, that in turn takes pressure off the state, okay. And that's what I think people generally want. And to to Monica's point, it's quite good for the insurers as well, because early intervention services, certainly on the group schemes, uh, I've I've I've I've seen that 85% of uh of early intervention doesn't result in a claim, okay? But I think that's good, and I think we will accept that because if we particularly with mental health issues, if we if we can get people back before the deferral peas even hit, you know, we've achieved something that insurance is supposed to be doing, yeah? So that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_03:

I think, can I just raise a point very quickly, Stevie? Sorry, just touching and sort of summarizing all this sort of stuff. There's two things I wanted to say. Firstly, Roy's spot on. If you think there's just under six million SMEs in the UK and they account for 99% of the working population, if we're not providing solutions that support the individuals that work at those businesses, we're leaving ourselves wide open to risk. Exactly what we're talking about. But the second thing I wanted to talk about is that this is all fascinating to me because if I'll put my advisor hat on for a minute, and Roy will probably agree with me on this one, early intervention and back to work and vocational rehabilitation are not things that we widely talk about in this industry. We tend to talk very linear about take out a policy, point of sale, underwriting, claims, but we don't talk about this stuff. And I think there needs to be an awful lot more education or an awful lot conversation around this sort of stuff. Because if I just talk to you literally from an advisor's perspective, someone who did the job for many years, actually advising these policies, this was not something that we widely discussed. It wasn't something that we widely promoted or talked about. And so I think understanding the value of what it is you're saying and the key points at this report and the and the and that you guys are making on this on this podcast is there needs to be a wider conversation around this because it's clearly highly beneficial. It's clearly going to provide great value for both policyholder and the advisor who's writing the policy business. But it's just more about understanding the key benefits that are available when you take out these types of products, that we can do that educational piece up front that Roy's talking about. Because I just think there's this mismatch, this this, like you mentioned, Monica, about this mismatch of expectations and knowledge, we're not having the conversation. This is one of the first times I've really got under the bonnet of this stuff listening to you guys talk today. And I'm an advisor that's done the job for years, as Roy has as well. So hearing you guys so eloquently explain the value of vocational rehabilitation, I'm thinking, why are we not having wider conversations about this? Why is this not educational stuff that's put forward by the providers?

SPEAKER_01:

We're trying, we're trying.

SPEAKER_03:

No criticism, by the way.

SPEAKER_04:

This is a great point for me to jump in here and uh, you know, I I think I I'm not needed anymore. I could leave you guys here chatting about this for a few hours. But Julie, you touched on what is, what even is uh Voc rehab there, and it's my job as as the sort of Joe blogs of of the podcast to ask these questions. So actually, can you just explain what is vocational rehabilitation?

SPEAKER_00:

It's broadly speaking, anything that will help someone to remain in or return to work or get back to work if they have been unemployed. So it's having conversations around adjustments in the workplace, uh, what someone's capability is of what they can do in a work context. It's about the process of phase return, it's a process of talking to an employer about getting back if you're a self-employed, it's about what you need to help you with the resources to get back into the workplace again, and it's also about managing your health in a work context. It's very broad in its um uh ethos of philosophy, um, but it's kind of that spirit of hope, collaboration, um, engagement with stakeholders, um and all working together towards the common goal of enabling an employee to a person to retain a working mindset and get back into work as soon as they can.

SPEAKER_04:

And is that done via uh employers, or is it uh is it also in support with um you know services you might get with an income protection policy?

SPEAKER_00:

It's it's done it could be through income protection, it can be through employers directly, it can be through job centres, it can be through the welfare system. It's actually extremely you will find a VOC rehab practitioner in lots of different places and spaces, and they may well have they may well be occupational therapists, but they might be physiotherapists, they might be psychologists, they might be work coaches, they might be health coaches, and then various different pathways that the government has established. So you can see them in lots of different places. It shows up in the NHS as well. There's like uh vocational rehab for stroke survivors, for example. Um for the VRA's perspective, it's about joining up all those different practitioners so we have this common kind of like we're saying, spirit of vocational rehabilitation, how we operate as a collective, so you can be um kind of clear about what we can do as practitioners. If you go over to the Vocational Rehabilitation Association, there's a wealth of information there. There's a positioning document we we created and released on the 6th of November, the day after the Mayfield review, just to say that this is what VOC Rehab is, so you can get clarity there. It's a large but very interesting document. You should go and have a read if you're interested in vocational rehabilitation to understand some more about what it is. And there's a table in there that describes almost levels of support, sort of non-clinical perhaps uh assessment and understanding recommendations, then the services like uh functional capacity evaluations, um uh uh workplace worksite assessments, that sort of thing. And then you've got um kind of a deeper rehabilitation kind of level to it, so it explains it and sets out what it could look like and um how how it can play out. The support that it provides.

SPEAKER_04:

Sounds like a great uh resource for advice uh or or anyone else listening to this podcast to go and go and check out to learn more. So thank you very much. Uh let's drill down more into the vocational rehabilitation. Julie, you you do you did start mentioning it a little bit earlier. Um, you know, how is uh vocational rehabilitation and early event early intervention sort of how's it gonna help? You know, the the report really pushes this idea of healthy, a healthy working life cycle, you know, a proper framework for how we support people before they get ill, while they're off, and when they come back. So it's obviously absolutely central to that, isn't it? Obviously, there's there's there's evidence that says, you know, this early intervention stops these short-term issues, but you know, becoming long long-term absences. So can you tell us, talk to us, talk to us more about that?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, gosh, it's like it's literally where do you start? So if we just start with a backdrop, Matt, you mentioned about where's it starting from in 2019. Pre-COVID pandemic, the WHO was saying the next pandemic on the horizon, in their opinion, was depression. We were having increased numbers of mental ill health. I think that's been absolutely sped up in the younger generations for any and other reasons, and that's another podcast in its own right. Um, but we're seeing an explosion of mental ill health in our young people. But also we've got an aging workforce, which six years post-2019, we are getting an older workforce, and with that, we are getting an increase in long-term conditions and people coping with those in the workplace. So that's sort of our backdrop from a health perspective. And Volk Rehab is there to try and support people in any point, you know, whether they're out of work to get back into work, whether they're struggling at work to stay in work, we can help with a prevention piece so we can kind of help people to access all sorts of different support. We can be non-clinical and we can be advisory around phase return to work planning, what stay and work planning looks like, what a well-being action plan looks like, what a phased exit from work looks like, what a stay and work plan looks like, all of those things have a non-clinical workload. It can be a rehab uh practitioner space. Um, but it also can be a clinical space. So, so kind of mixing up and blending, as we kind of call it working to well-being, but blending our um healthcare needs with our work needs, so having that lens of um health and work focus because early intervention, thinking about it from a health perspective and health behaviour change perspective, you want to get people early because what you don't want is unhealthy health behaviours kind of kicking in and spiralling. So you want people when they're just beginning to feel fed up or experiencing emotion, you don't want people at burnout or people who have diagnoses of anxiety and depression, for example. You want to be peeping helping people much further upstream to help them to manage their symptoms, to manage them in the workplace, and to get the support they need from the employer to be able to do that. And the review says it very clearly, and we've been talking about it for years in the VRA. These changes don't have to be huge, and actually, if you're often helping one person, you're helping your whole workforce anyway. So that's why you want early intervention, I think. It's preventing people falling out of work, it's not necessarily preventing illness, but that's that's kind of the health services perspective, that's health promotion, that's government work. But it's like what can employers do to make their working environment conducive to help people to manage their long-term condition, to manage their disability, and to not cause health problems and not cause burnout, not have unhealthy working working um places and spaces. And Vok rehab folk help kind of advocate and navigate that space. So instead of trying to help someone stay at work, for example, it's about thinking about what the employee needs to help stay at work, it's what the employer can do to help them stay at work, but all with a backdrop of the Equality Act and reasonable adjustments and what's doable. It is very much almost a negotiation and a conversation, but there's a lot of upskilling that we do with the employee helping them understand their health and their work needs, but also the employer and the line manager. Because you know, how many people do they actually come across? Where's their knowledge base? What's their understanding of this space? You know, it's understanding where their boundaries are, so what who can help? And that's where the income protection stuff is really beautiful because you have the practitioners, you have the claims assessors, you have the advisors who can all help play their their piece of this kind of jigsaw puzzle. But um, there's probably so much more I can say about VOC rehab, but it's that pivotal doing, it's that doing space, it's it's having recommendations but implementing them and engaging. That's kind of a crucial difference.

SPEAKER_02:

Julie, can I ask you a question? Um, obviously on Vok Vok Rehab. Sorry, I'm I'm not taking over Stevie here as the uh as the podcast host, but it just it just occurs to me with all the wonderful things you've talked about, and and we unfortunately know that only 8% of employers have group income protection. What what happens there in terms of is there is there an exposure sometimes for employers to look at their sick pay arrangements if they haven't got JIP? Okay. And uh because I guess the individual members of staff are looking for a solution to uh this is all great, but if I am off for a long period of time, it says that my particular place of employment is going to pay me for four weeks and then it's gonna be at their discretion. What how how do we overcome those that you know that those issues?

SPEAKER_00:

I guess that's a difficult one, isn't it? Because that comes down to the individual employer and their policies around sick pay and what they do. And I think the review is quite interesting because in the Netherlands it's obligatory to pay um sick pay for two years. But what's interesting about that dynamic is the employee is also obligated to get back to work and to support any rehab that the employer will provide. So there's that symbiosis between employer and employee that's kind of really locked into the system. And I don't think we quite have that. We don't have that transparency or that, yeah, that clarity between the two parties. And I think that's what the Mayfield Review is trying to also get to.

SPEAKER_01:

And uh also, Roy, on the flip side, I think the the recent niche as well, when you know, some customers who buy IP, you know, they need to take into account their own sickness payments. So teachers, you know, medical professionals. So they might be receiving, you know, full pay for six months and they don't notify to the insurer, you know, of the absence. And I think that's where one of the gaps is are, you know, one of the gaps are um so we don't know of the absence, we don't know what support is in place or is not in place. So that's already a lost opportunity. And most of the time, from what I see, interventions are purely medical and they fail to address you know the aspects that Julie was mentioning around employer support, employer engagement, workplace support, you know. Also, you know, when cases where You know, the cause of the claim is related to the workplace or or exacerbated by the workplace. You know, so there's a lot more work to be done there, you know, to facilitate that process. And one of the things that the report mentioned, actually, and I quote literally, is the challenge is that well-being initiatives have have had a random set of explosions with no clarity on what works. And I think that's one of the challenges that vocational rehabilitation tries to address, you know, utilizing this biopsychosocial framework, evidence base where you engage all the stakeholders in the process.

SPEAKER_02:

And the opportunity the the opportunity here, and Matt and I both talked about this loads over the years, is therefore to make sure that individuals ask, sorry, uh I fails ask their individual clients to check what their sick pay arrangements are work and also to check that properly. So to get the proper HR booklet and and actually drill down and don't be fobbed off because that happens sometimes as well, Matt, doesn't it? Whereas, yeah, I I they'd look after me for for ages. Well, actually, in reality, I don't think they will. So I think the advisory part of that answer um is actually it's really incumbent on us to to press home, you know, exactly what happens if you're off long-term ill.

SPEAKER_03:

It's interesting because Roy, you've just said exactly what I was about to say, which is funny, because I've had to not at all. No, it's brilliant, it's good because we're all thinking along the same lines. And I think for me, the biggest challenge as an advisor was firstly the misunderstanding around what people get in terms of sick pay. So you'd ask them the question and they'd have this kind of misguided view of what they got. And I think in the UK, we're very strange. We have these super taboos, don't we, around things like money and illness. And we we actually almost like don't like to have this conversation, it's very strange. We don't like to have the conversation, so we don't probe enough, we don't dig into the contract and understand what that actually means or the fiscal consequences of us not being able to work, as Roy said, that financial education piece. And so I think it's really important culturally that we start to educate in the same way you were mentioning there, Julie, around like the Netherlands and stuff, around having these conversations. Like, what does that actually mean? What do I get? Because the number of customers that I've spoken to that said, oh yeah, you know, my employer would look after me, oh yeah, they'd take care of me. And you go, really? So you they would allow you to just be a continuous burden on the business when you're not generating any income for the business, really? They're like, oh yeah, I've worked for them for 10 years. And you realise in reality they just get rid of them after five minutes because in all honesty, commercially, it makes no sense to do so. But it's this misconception, this misunderstanding. So there has to be more education, and I've said it for years, and Roy's exactly the same. You know, he's banged that drum for decades around this idea that we need to be educating people and having conversations around what the financial consequences of our decisions look like. And I think early intervention for me is brilliant, it's absolutely brilliant. And I suppose the question I've got off the back of this with my advisor hat on, if you don't mind, Julie, is we've got a couple of providers out there, and I'm not mentioning any names, that have already started to go down the road of things like lifestyle benefits, rewards for looking after yourself and making healthier lifestyle choices that you know have an impact on either rewards or the premiums you pay. Do you think that there's scope or even likelihood moving forward that that's going to be an area of development within the industry where we're almost having providers and even potentially employers looking at introducing schemes that reward healthier lifestyle choices or behaviours that could help be preventative in terms of things like claims and mental health challenges?

SPEAKER_00:

Because is that like a carrot and a stick scenario, isn't it? And it depends how well you know that that's implemented. And also, you know, you you'll have people who either worried well who'll engage with that sort of thing, and they'll wear their watches and they'll be really with it. And what would worry me about that is the group of people who would actually struggle to engage, and it wouldn't necessarily be for the ones of not wanting to, but you know, for example, people with um severe and enduring mental ill health are notorious for not looking after their own health, they're much more likely to smoke, they're much more likely to drink, um, and they're much less likely to engage in healthy behaviours and go to screening, for example, and get tested. So you you've got to I I'd be very wary with that approach and how it's actually then delivered. Um Yeah, and just say the behaviour change, you know, Melon's mentioned it a few days about the biopsychosocial approach and the individual approach, that that's very kind of a broad brush, but you're always gonna have individuals who will interact with that policy and how they actually, you know, get engage and behave and do or don't do.

SPEAKER_03:

But I suppose, Roy, that's where the benefit of say the group option might be, where you're always aggregating the risk across the pool of people, but they still get access to things like EAP and other stuff, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mean it's I I I think you know, I mean, group is brilliant, and I I'm I'm involved in the group market, but obviously this is the you know, the income protection task force is is more involved in individual. I think it's so important we take the the lessons from group across to individual. But again, I come back to something that my worry here is the amount of individual policyholders who have just forgotten what they have. And I think that's that that's our that's our probably our biggest challenge.

SPEAKER_03:

This is why this is why what you're saying about annual statements is so important. And the reason I say this is because when I'm doing my coaching, one of the primary reasons that advisors don't go out and reach out to their customers and remind them what they've got is for fear of cancellation. I think that's nonsense. I find that crazy.

SPEAKER_02:

It's completely it's complete nonsense because as as someone that's involved in a wealth market where you know we are made to go and talk to people about their pensions and and savings, okay, right? It adds to the advice. And people, people, when I do it as part of protection, people add to the protection. But I think there is a you know, there is a challenge here. Having said that, I'm still glass half full on this because I think ultimately what Mayfield's doing is he's sort of saying there is a situation here that someone needs to come and help us with, and that's everybody on this call, yeah? Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01:

I think one of the last messages as well is is from there is yeah, the risk of engaging only customers who are likely to do look after themselves anyway. So that high locus of control concept, and and also I think to me is the balance of you know solutions um that are digital-based, but also that human connection. And that notification point is so key for insurers, I think, to be able to support customers at that point.

SPEAKER_04:

Thank you so much, everyone. I think we could we could continue discussing this for you know quite some time. But I think before we wrap up uh this episode, uh I did want to ask you each just for one brief closing remark. So, you know, the the report makes it clear that big change is needed. And for me personally, it it's from from what you guys have been saying, it feels like a big win-win across the board. It's the win, it's a win for the government and and improving the economy, it's a win for uh employers, it's getting people to return to work and helping them stay to work or not even leave work in the first place, and then for uh employees, it's also helping them get back to work, stay in work, and also a huge, huge positive for for mental health and their well-being. So it's cultural, it's structural, and it's practical. So let me ask uh each of you if you can make one change that would move the needle on helping Britain stay in work, what would it be? Julie, let's start with you.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I was gonna say evidence and data really. We know what we have works in to not be getting that collection of information that we can then put up with because the more people know about what we have and how powerful it is, the more people we can help, and the employers we can help, and then ultimately the government has that tripartite kind of effect. So collecting evidence and data in case studies is showing how brilliant we are.

SPEAKER_01:

For me, I think it's a big call to action to the whole income protection sector to be an active part of the solution and actively participate in this vanguard phase, you know, so shout about your outcomes, you know, develop processes and data collection systems to really understand, you know, who needs help, what type of help, and what works.

SPEAKER_04:

Right. What's your final message for the listeners?

SPEAKER_02:

Can I say annual statements one last time? No, um my my um my message again, and and and I I have to harp back to seven families is case studies because I think if we tell advisors how things work in reality, we we we we explain anecdotally how how great these things are, what will happen as the advisor community will get it, and by that I'm talking about the wealth and mortgage as well as protection community, and then we will be we will be part of communicating this to our customers. And I think the the the final thing for income protection is that look, this is not knocking life insurance on criticalness at all, but again, every time I sit in in a room like this, it it just reasserts to me that we need to be talking about income protection before any other protection product because that is the the for me the most important. And uh we used to talk about hierarchy of protection, and I know that's that's not everybody's uh uh cup of tea as an expression, but you know, I I still use it, and income protection should be literally at the top of all financial advice.

SPEAKER_04:

Thanks, Roy. And I I didn't have the heart to tell you earlier, it's now 11 years on from Seven Families, just to make us all feel a bit older. Uh Matt, what's your final message for everyone?

SPEAKER_03:

I think my final message is probably going to be echoing what Roy's saying, but I I think I like that that concept of education. And I think it's education not just for the consumer, as in educating them about the reality. I mean, listening to some of the statistics from the report and some of the things Judy was saying, I was quite gobsmacked actually about the number of people that are off work. So I think education is really critical in helping customers overcome that optimism bias around the fact that they're probably not likely to end up off work when in reality we know there's there's a large swathe of people that are, but also educating both consumers and advisors around the importance of things like early intervention, about vocational rehabilitation and all the resources that are available to themselves and their policyholders. Because I think it's really important to kind of explain that as part of the advice process so customers really see the value, which then adds to what Roy's saying around things like annual statements. For me, education, both financial education and this concept around the reality around being off work, I think it's really, really important because it's going to give us all the confidence to have more conversations around this sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_04:

Thank you very much to Julie, Monica, and Roy for that fascinating discussion on the Keep Britain Working report. But Matt, you know, you were really focusing uh throughout that episode about, you know, for the for the advisor, what that actually means. And I what I wanted to throw to you, but just for a final Matt's top tips, as it were, a little callback to season one there. Um what were some of the things that advisors could do, you know, based on this report, based on what we've just talked about, to help move the needle uh from their side?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, you're spot on, Stevie, because as you know, as we always try to do with this podcast, it's about offering practical, actionable tips that advisors can take away. And I think the conversation's been really, really insightful. And I think that report is really, really profound in terms of the findings. But as you say, what does it mean for the advisors listening and what can they then go and take away in their conversations? I think the very first thing I'd encourage advisors to do is actually study the report. You know, Roy mentioned that um the report's available and it contains some exceptional information that I think would really help on a number of levels, both in terms of understanding the importance of things like vocational rehabilitation, understanding the importance of things like early intervention, but also just to get your head around the statistics and the number of people that are currently off work because it's gonna help you add value to your revised conversations when you're connecting the dots for customers and explaining the importance and the value of things like personal income protection contracts. So for me, that would be the number one thing I'll take away from today's session is go and study the report, go and search up for it online, use the link that we're gonna put in the podcast episode so that you can actually become familiar with the information so that you can add even more value to revised conversations. And the second thing is once you've understood things like vocational rehabilitation, you know, maybe reach out to people like Monica or Julie, you know, get in contact with these individuals and understand more about the concept. Because for me as an advisor, I was always a little bit naive to these things. I didn't, I mean, you even mentioned when you asked Julie, what does it actually mean? You know, asking the question, what does vocab rehabilitation actually mean? So for me as an advisor, I think I'd also understand that as a subject matter a lot more because there's examples. I mean, Roy mentioned case studies, there's examples that I've come across where I had a client once, and I think they received some sort of ridiculous amount, like£3,000, which was above and beyond the normal benefit of the plan, to get this ergonomic desk because they were suffering from repetitive strain industry, uh, injury, sorry. So to avoid a claim materializing, the insurance provider recognized the value of doing something like that that could help minimize the risk of claim and enable that individual to keep working, but without it forming into a full claim. So, you know, those kind of case studies, learn about them, speak to providers, get examples, understand vocabulary vocational rehabilitation, understand early intervention and the role it plays, so that you can understand when you're having that conversation around the people's protection, income protection, you can really land that properly. And then finally, what I'd do is I'd do exactly what Roy's saying, which is in the advent of getting annual statements, if you don't currently get annual statements from your provider, or even if you do, take time to reach out to your customer. Take time to go through the policy they've got, explain the benefits and the advantages, explain some of the gaps and limitations if they've got, say, a short-term plan and try and encourage them to go onto a full-term policy. But also really highlight the impact of those types of things and make them aware. You know, education's key, as Roy was explaining. So explain to them, look, if you do find yourself in a situation where you're struggling or you've got some issues or you feel it could lead to you needing time off work, let me know so we can look at what options are available. Don't wait till it's become a full claim. So I think for me it's those three things, right? Firstly, read the report, get your head around what's going on in these statistics because it's only going to help you have those conversations with even more impact. Secondly, understand vocab rehabilitation, understand early intervention. And thirdly, have those conversations with your customer. Highlight the importance of the value-added benefits within those contracts, make them aware of these things, and allow them the space to reach out to you if they've got issues that they think are going to have an impact on their ability to go to work. Because the earlier you intervene, the more value you add, the less likely it's going to resolve into an actual full-on claim. And so you're adding even more value as you go to the relationship you've got. And it's more likely to keep these policies in the book. So for me, from an advisor's perspective, those are the three core things I'll take away from today's session.

SPEAKER_04:

Well, listeners, that's a wrap on season two of Let's Talk Income Protection. If you want to learn more about the Keep Britain Working Report, you can check the link in the episode description or just Google uh Keep Britain Working Report. Uh and as mentioned at the top of the show, there will be a season three of Let's Talk Income Protection. There are many more exciting things to come at the start of 2026 from the IPTF, including Wisdom Wednesdays. That's IPTF's new AI assistant, Aerie and the IPTF Academy. The launch of three new work streams, digital and AI, regulation and compliance, and proposition. Plus, watch this space for an exciting new advisor support video for consumers, to name but a few developments. Matt, before we find do our final wrap-up, is there anything you'd like to say to our audience to wrap up season two?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, firstly, thank you to everybody that's been tuning in and listening. I can't thank you enough. Obviously, we can't do it without you guys. There's no point doing anything unless you've got an audience, and we've been gobsmacked by the number of people that have been listening in regularly. Um, so yeah, thank you to everyone that's taken the time out of their day to listen to what we've we've got to talk to. Hopefully, we've delivered value and hopefully we'll continue to do so. Um, you know, the IPTF is working very hard to raise awareness of the importance of income protection and trying to provide as many resources as we possibly can to support the industry in having those wider financial resilience and holistic conversations. And it just leads me to say thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure and an honour to present this podcast with you, Stevie, and uh yeah, I hope to continue so for the coming years.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, I concur, Matt, with everything you said. Uh yeah, pleasure working with you too on another season. But uh for now that is it for this season. Thank you for all the support this year, listeners. If you have any burning questions or would like to suggest any topics to the IPTF, please email us at info at iptf.co.uk. That is info at iptf.co.uk. Have a fantastic holiday break, and we'll see you all in 2026. Goodbye. Keep protecting those incomes, guys. Let's talk. Income protection is produced by C Studios.