Let's Talk Income Protection

Why Women Struggle to Protect Their Income: Insights and Solutions

• Income Protection Task Force • Season 2 • Episode 2

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In this month's episode, Matt and Stevie speak to Rose St Louis from Scottish Widows and Joanna Streames from Velvet Mortgage about the notable gender gap in income protection, the latest research done by Scottish Widows on this subject and the challenges women face in securing their financial futures. 

Listen now to learn more about:

• The importance of understanding the gender gap in income protection 
• Insights from Rose St Louis on the findings and implications of recent research 
• Joanna Streams shares the advisor's perspective on protecting women's incomes 
• Real-life examples that illustrate the impact on families 
• Building trust and communication with female clients 
• Actionable takeaways for advisors at different experience levels 
• Strategies for closing the income protection gap for women 
• The need for ongoing education about income protection benefits 
• Discussing the future of income protection tailored to women

View the IPTF Profile of an IP customer in association with Iress report here - https://iptf.co.uk/profile-of-an-ip-customer/ 

View the Scottish Widows Research "The Income Protection Gender Gap"  - https://adviser.scottishwidows.co.uk/assets/literature/docs/38794.pdf

Do you have an idea on how to reduce this gap? Let us know! Drop us a message on the links below or tag us on LinkedIn (@IPTF) with your thoughts. Don’t forget to subscribe for more expert insights!

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Produced and edited by SEA Studios

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to let's Talk Income Protection, season 2, episode 2. This is the podcast that breaks down everything you need to know about income protection, whether you're an experienced advisor or just starting out. This podcast will give you actionable insights and advice and, of course, gain valuable unstructured cpd points. I'm stevie anoldi, the content associate for the iptf, and I'm joined, as always by the protection coach himself, matt chapman. Hi, matt, how are tricks?

Speaker 2:

mate, I'm very well. Thank you, stevie, great to be on the podcast again. Um, the thing that I'm impressed about most is how well season two's already been received. I understand from what you said to me the other day. We've had some really amazing listening figures so far, so it's brilliant to see that people are taking the content and enjoying it as much as we enjoy making it. So I'm doing really well. Thank you, mate. How are you?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, really really good. Yeah, it's great to see how well the first episode's done, but of course, we'd love it to be even better. So please do share it around with your colleagues. Please give us a review on Apple Podcasts if you can. That really really helps us get up in those charts. But let's talk about this month's episode, matt.

Speaker 1:

We are talking around closing the gender gap in income protection. The industry has known for a few years now that, as much as there are gender gaps in pay and pensions, protection is also a provision where women are underserved. In the IPTF's profile of an IP customer's research, which you can find under our insights on the IPTF website, iptfcouk, we found that, despite an increase in the number of women buying IP, which is up by 13% since 2017, a significant gap still remains. As an industry, we need to consider the needs that women have for more flexibility in terms of IP offerings. The likelihood of career breaks, part-time working and caring responsibilities all contribute to this. Now, I'm very aware right now that we currently have two men on the podcast, so, coming up in today's show, we are speaking to both a provider and an advisor on this topic. First, I'll be joined by Rose St Louis Protection Director at Scottish Widows, who have recently completed some research into this gap. Then Matt will be speaking to Joanna Streams from Velvet Mortgages to get that advisor perspective, to explore how financial advisors can help women see the value of income protection.

Speaker 1:

We then listen to your messages and answer your burning questions. So if you want to feature on a future episode, go to speakpipecom forward, slash letstalkipodcast or you can email us at info at iptfcouk. After that we give you your actionable takeaways, which will be aimed at different levels of IP knowledge, before Matt wraps things up with his conclusions. All this and more to come on this month's let's Talk IP. Shall we get cracking Matt? Let's do this, stevie. So, rose, thank you so much for joining us on the pod today. It's a pleasure to have you here. Let's jump in straight away. What has the research found?

Speaker 3:

So I think whenever you're looking at research through the lens of gender, there's some assumptions that you'll make around what it's going to tell you. So we know that there's a gender pensions gap, we know that there's a gender pay gap and, arguably, when we're looking at protection through the lens of gender, you could probably hypothesise, before you've even done any research, that there'll probably be a gender protection gap. So we've done a load of research already at Scottish Widows and we found exactly that that women are underinsured compared to their male counterparts, not just from they don't have much across the piece, across all protection products, but certainly from an income protection perspective. That's exactly the same and from a sum assured it's less than their male counterparts. But what we really wanted to do is double click on that and really think about what does that mean from income protection? As you know, we've recently joined the income protection market, so we want to step into the market from a place of understanding and consumer insights.

Speaker 3:

It was really important for us to actually do this research and I think more broadly, what we saw and what we asked was we want to understand how people cope with financial shocks. You know how do they cope, whether it's things or health, and what we found is that that one in five people don't have enough savings to cope with those financial emergencies and that rises to one in four people, specifically through the lens of gender. So we really want to be thoughtful on how we can educate and inform and make women feel more empowered about creating financial resilience and being less susceptible to those financial shocks. So there's a real need, through the lens of gender, for us to reduce that gap, increase education and inform women to create that financial resilience.

Speaker 1:

That's really really interesting. It's just made me think why is this? Is there a particular reason why women aren't getting protection when compared to men?

Speaker 3:

So again, I'll start with the research and I'll add my own little flavour to it. It would be rude for me not to, wouldn't it? So, from from a research perspective, what we did find is women. They're aware, but only seven percent of women actually have any income protection in place at all, so super, super low. But when we looked across other insurances um and I've got some I've got some, uh, some good data here 56 of them are are paying to protect their content insurance. 24% of them are paying to protect their pets. 53% of them are paying for Netflix or other streaming subscriptions. So there's a real question around prioritization there, and I'm really, really thoughtful around the role that women play, how they prioritizeise and why they prioritise and I always talk about women as being lionesses. You know, they're very protective and they protect their families and their homes and their children, and I think that they do that as a priority, and sometimes they think about themselves and their own wellbeing goes further down the list of priorities.

Speaker 1:

It's quite clear in the stats there that you know they're making sure that everything else is looked after, you know, especially even the pets, but they're not taking the time to go. Well, actually, I need to look after myself, but it's often in a way in a busy world that that can happen. So what are the things that we potentially need to understand more about this market and you know, and to help serve them? You know like everyone they must worry about. You know these types of things they must have fears right, absolutely.

Speaker 3:

And I'm really, really thoughtful that I don't think it's that they, you know, I don't think it's that women don't think they need to do it right. I think there is a thing around prioritisation and, you know, 32 of women said, um, you know, it just wasn't something that was top of their list, it wasn't something they were getting through getting around to. Um, so for me, it's like how do you bring that further up? And we know that. Well, I was a financial advisor before I took this role and I remember back in the day, I was taught that you know your income is your most valuable asset. Without that income, how are you going to pay for the Netflix subscription and pay for the pet insurance and do all of that good stuff?

Speaker 3:

And it's really understanding that we have to put women back to the front of the queue. We've got to get them to prioritise themselves. We've got to, we've got to. Today, 50% of the workforce is made up of women. Women are are generating an income and fueling their, their, their households as well. So we need to make sure that women understand the value of that income and the impact if it was not available to them due to long-term accident, sickness, disability, how it's replaced, to make sure that that lioness in them still makes sure that they can facilitate and provide for their families and the security of their financial futures.

Speaker 1:

Of course. Yeah, they need to protect that whole family. They need to be looking after to make sure not just the cubs are insured but the lionesses are as well. But the truth is, our research also tells us that women are concerned, and they do have their own fears.

Speaker 3:

You know, 61% of women are concerned about the loss of income due to illness or injuries, and one in 10 wouldn't be able to support their household at all. So it's not as if they're not prioritising it and they're not worried about it. We just need to get those two things to work together and spur some action, and and for us, as an industry, manufacturers, advisors to come together, um and and solve that problem. I think that that's where the magic happens. That's how we start to close the gap, that's how we start to build more resilience and make women um feel as empowered as their male counterparts in this space.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's really, really interesting, I think, especially in the modern day world now, where family dynamics have changed. You know, women are more often the breadwinners of the families as well, so that income is as important, if not more important than ever. So let's think about the advisors now. So how can we actually help support women with this? Obviously, there's a need, there's a gap, and there is training or perhaps things that need to be improved to help women get protected. I'm going to focus on the topic of mindset, which actually was last month's episode, if the listeners haven't listened to this which actually was last month's episode. If the listeners haven't listened to this, please go and check out episode one. We have a fantastic interview with Anish Patel, from Anish Mortgages as well, who showed how changing his approach has improved his advice at no end. But let's talk about these mindset traps. Rose, what are some of the key points that you picked out from the research?

Speaker 3:

so our research showed us some really, really interesting content. That's really helpful, I think, um for for facing into this conversation and helping us solve the problem and close that gap. So it told us that 49 of women prefer to speak to someone face to face or on the on the phone. So they they want that engagement, they want that connection, they want the back and forth. Our research also showed that 14% don't understand what income protection is. So there's a real need to explain, to educate, to get people comfortable with what it is and bust the myths around what it isn't. And then 8% think that income protection is too complicated to arrange.

Speaker 3:

And I think that's a real space that advisors can lean in, take all of the heavy lifting, because once they've got the education understanding, then the advisors can really really rush in and mobilize that solution and facilitate that need and really create that resilience. So you know we've talked already about there are fears, there is the need really create that resilience. So you know we've talked already about there are fears, there is the need, there is the demand. These are the objections that we need to get over and by closing that gap and really kind of leaning into the way that women want to be engaged with and the education that they need. We're really going to start to make progress.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's clear, and I think that stat of 49% would prefer face-to-face on a phone is really telling you know, over nearly half your audience just want this, like we're doing now, rose, this face-to-face conversation, and that's where you can use your advice process to make sure that they understand what income protection is and then make sure and let them know that it's not actually that complicated and I'm here to help you. So what else did the research show, rose? There must be some more inroads here where we can get women protected.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely. One of the bits of the research that I particularly found interesting was the bit around value-added benefits and additional services, and sometimes we can walk past this. But I just want to share some details with you because I think it's a real call to action for advisors. So almost seven out of 10 women so 69% were actually not aware that GP services, mental health support, dedicated nurse services, counselling, bereavement, support service were actually offered with protection policies. So that was brand new information and, let's be honest, we all take this for granted because we all who are in the industry know that that's included but that's not known.

Speaker 3:

So it's really important that we don't step we're aware of our own biases around our own products and services, because I always say, like clients and customers, they don't know what they don't know and it's our opportunity and our need to tell them that. But then if we double click into those services a bit more and we ask women what they value, they women value those services more than their male counterparts. So whether it's GP, mental health, counselling, nurses, they value them. They feel that those additional service really, really add value. So what does all of that mean?

Speaker 3:

Having conversations with women about protection and about income protection in particular. We really need to bring those value-added services into the conversation, not because that helps them make the decision to buy, but I believe it underpins the product you bought. It makes it stickier and it brings it to life immediately. You don't have to wait until that moment of truth, you don't have to wait until that illness happens or that sickness or that time off work, because you can be using those services immediately. And I think that, bearing in mind, women don't know about that and they're telling us that's important we're walking past a massive opportunity if we don't give that conversation oxygen with our clients, our female clients yeah, it's a.

Speaker 1:

It's a huge selling point there, I think, and it's interesting because, for me, before I started working with the iptf, I even wasn't aware that you had these added value benefits that you could get from a, from a policy which are, you know, incredibly appealing. So, yeah, it's certainly a fantastic tool in advisors tool belt to go out and get more women protected. Okay, rose, so I'm going to wrap things up now, but it's really clear that this gender gap is driven by multiple factors here, you know, including affordability concerns, things like career breaks and a lack of awareness, and that insurers must take proactive steps here to make products more appealing or more accessible and, well, actually, just let them know about what you can have by having these products. I'm going to ask you this final thing. So what would be your actionable takeaway for the industry to try and push the needle, push the dial in the right direction?

Speaker 3:

So from this research. It's been hugely insightful and there are a few things that come to mind around. What's the so what of all of that right? The first thing is the value of commissioning research. Value of commissioning research, the insights that it shows, the content that it allows us to put in the hands of advisors around how consumers behave, how they think and, in this particular research, how women think and how they engage and how we need to engage with them to mobilize action to create that resilience. It also shows us some of the biases we talked about it in the value-added services. Sometimes we walk past those and it gives us pause for thought to say, actually let's have that broader conversation and let's not take for granted that consumers know what we know. So I think that research piece is really really rich in what it can do.

Speaker 3:

I think the second thing that's really really important is for us to use our annual statements. We all know that protection income protection, any kind of protection shouldn't be a one and done. It's not just sold and we need to reinforce it. We know that things like other needs, like Netflix and other streaming, and when life stages happen and income changes, sometimes protection can be the first thing to go. So we need to make sure we reinforce the value of that, using our annual statements, and tell them, tell them and tell them again.

Speaker 3:

Right, but not only that. We need to engage with those consumers because they have life stages. Life is not static. It changes Marriage, divorce, children, house purchases, moving properties, pay rises and also changes in work. You know, there are people that certainly women who are not returning back to the corporate world after they had children. The gig economy is the fastest growing labor market in the UK and there are more and more female entrepreneurs. We need to make sure that those benefits that were in the corporate world are replaced is not the responsibility solely of the insurer, neither is it solely the responsibility of the advisor, and this is a real, real story of the sum of the parts being greater than the individual components, and I think that there's a real call to action for us to come together in harmony and to bring all of our superpowers together to serve the person that sits arguably right in the middle, which is the consumer, to create that financial resilience and that security that basically, all of us that work in this industry and feel so passionate about absolutely want to do 100%.

Speaker 1:

It's all about collaboration, because it does take a village to make these changes. So there we go, industry. There's some amazing top tips to try and get women, more women protected, and and let's close that, that gap rose. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure to speak to you. Where can listeners go to find out more about the research?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely so. We'll be pushing content out through our LinkedIn channel. So, scottish Widows Protection Advisor, but obviously for any of the advisors, just reach straight out into your BDMs and we would be more than happy to help.

Speaker 1:

Rose, thank you very much.

Speaker 3:

Thank you.

Speaker 1:

Well, that was incredibly interesting, Matt, from my point of view. What did you take away from that interview?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it was quite insightful, quite interesting. I mean. I guess that the key things, the key summaries for me were that you know, women know the risks. They just need the right nudge, so sometimes the right encouragement. I was fascinated to hear that they prefer that human interaction. For me that was really interesting and it's where advisors can use that to potentially build trust and hopefully bridge this gender gap.

Speaker 2:

I was really interested to hear the reports in the survey around the value-added benefits and how they could be a major hook for female customers.

Speaker 2:

So it's really important that advisors don't ignore them, and we'll get into that when we get into the tips of it later on.

Speaker 2:

But I think what's really important is to think about framing protection around goals, not fears. I think that was really evident in the research and what they were saying and I loved I love Rose's comment around lionesses. I thought that was really good, I thought it was really powerful and I guess that's a great way that advisors can then bring that to life, can't they, in terms of focusing on the family and the world that the female customers care so much about. So I think there's all these amazing insights from the research that can really help advisors bring the need of protection to life for these customers, but in a way that actually they can see inherent value. And I think this research is really important and I think we should not ignore it. This is the time now to take that research and really do something with it. So yeah, I found it fascinating, I thought Rose was brilliant and the comments were just yeah, really interesting, really interesting to me.

Speaker 1:

Hashtag protect your pride. Perhaps Matt Love it. Now let's get that advisor perspective and I believe you have been speaking to Joanna Streams.

Speaker 2:

Jo, great to see you. Thank you very much for joining me. How are you?

Speaker 4:

I'm good, thank you. How are you?

Speaker 2:

Very well indeed, thank you. I'm very privileged to have you. Thank you very much for joining me. How are you? I'm good, thank you. How are you Very well indeed, thank you. I'm very privileged to have you on the podcast here today and, as you know, we're talking about closing the gender gap in income protection. I kind of wanted to get your thoughts and your opinions on how we can best potentially close that gender gap and help other advisors out there understand how they can tailor positioning in their protection conversations to get more female customers protected. So I was going to ask you, first and foremost, what kind of common concerns do women tend to raise when you discuss products like income protection? Do you think?

Speaker 4:

Yeah. So I mean, income protection is really, I'd say, where the major gap is, isn't it so that? And maybe critical illness as well? I think the biggest issue still is that, generally speaking, if we're looking at a family situation, women are still not earning generally the same as men, and that will usually be especially after career breaks, and that does affect us.

Speaker 4:

Having a career break does affect women in so many ways still.

Speaker 4:

So I think if we had more products which obviously the industry would need to create where we do allow for that career break, because we are naturally always going to be having the children we can't change that.

Speaker 4:

So you know, if we have those products where we can keep our cover in place but we can have a break on, you know, maybe matching maternity leave at least, so that we're not paying and we can't claim, maybe, but you know we're still insured and we haven't got to start that process all over again the more things like that that can be done from the industry, the more it's going to lend itself to protecting women better through those career breaks that we all have to have, even if we just have a small amount of time off before and after.

Speaker 4:

We are not robots. So you know most women these days, you know these days families, not just women we're wanting to have that time with our children. More Maternity leave is a lot better than it was when you know we had our kids. So we need to bring the industry up to reflect that, I think, and then that will really help women. But you know, when they do come back from working, they're often then catching up as well, pay wise. And then there's still mainly the caregivers picking up from nursery and school and whatnot, so perhaps not earning as much, so don't feel as important as the male earner in the family, if we're thinking of that scenario.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's a really interesting point. Actually, do you think maybe there's a bit of a misconception in the advice community potentially, and particularly among male advisors as well, that actually you know women and potentially who are at home do more of the caregiving role, so to speak, that that's, in terms of protection, less important, whereas in actual fact we know, don't we looking at the research, that if a male counterpart is unable to go to work for a period of time, that the female isn't actually doing all these different things in the background. So if we protect their income, in theory it's fine, but on the flip side, there's little care and consideration given to the idea that actually the impact of someone else being able to have to do that so, for example, if the female the self was unable to do those things, the impact on the male ability to then go and earn the money is significantly impacted. And I think often that's massively overlooked by the advice community. Would you you agree?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, definitely. And you know it goes back to me saying we're not robots. Men are not robots either. So if the female person is off the mum for something, and depending what that is, they're going to be affected because they're not robots. You know I mean they're probably not going to be the best partner if they are saying oh well, you know tough luck.

Speaker 4:

I'm going to work, you know you've just got to manage. But it's going to affect when one person is ill, and that's a parent, for example. In this scenario it's going to affect the whole family. But even just a couple, it's going to affect the whole family. You know, I've got a friend at the moment going through cancer and she's having a really terrible time and she said to me I tried to get her to have different variations of insurance. She wasn't a big earner and her words to me back then were you know, john earns the money, so it's fine, we'll be fine. But John doesn't earn the money if you're off sick, and that's happened because when he's off with you and it's really quite serious, they're having. It's been, it's been going on for well just over a month 19th of February last year, so just over a year, sorry, um. And he's had to have a lot of time off and he has not been paid because it is not him that's sick. So you know, you know she earned maybe 800, 900 pounds a month. That would have been a game changer for them had she insured herself.

Speaker 4:

So there's many conversations to have and many scenarios. You know where things can go wrong. Let's stop thinking about it in terms of policies. You know, first and foremost, let's think about the situation and the scenarios and let's actually get that right in our head. Because we both talk about the cash machine in the corner and you know, if you've got one that's £800 and £900, you've got one that's earning £4,000. Obviously, you know the first priority you're going to insure the £4,000 one, just as you would if they were cash machines. But what does the other cash machine that's £800 or hundred pounds do?

Speaker 4:

Well, if they're caregiving as well to children and they're going and picking the children up, if you, if that person gets sick and the mister is also off supporting, there's loss of mister's income at varying points. And then if he's having to go and get children as well, because you know, all sorts of things can happen, not just cancer, and it's going to affect you all can happen, not just cancer, and it's going to affect you all. So just try and actually be really morbid about these things as an advisor and bring it to life for your clients what would happen. And don't be put off by their fluffy answers Because, like Tricia, she put me off, she didn't want to listen and I did push a bit, but you know, with friends it's kind of awkward, isn't it?

Speaker 4:

And I had a dream many years ago and I woke up and I hadn't told my cousins about. You know, it was actually about global treatment and things like that. So I thought I've got to, because then I'll put it on them and if they just think I'm selling to them, so be it. And you know, but I've done my bit and, as an advisor, I think that's kind of how you've got to think and you've got to challenge, challenge them, and you've got to understand the scenarios that can happen, not just in terms of policy.

Speaker 2:

Definitely so. The two things I've took away so far are that products, by design, naturally tend to, just because of the way things are, lend themselves more to the male customers, so we need to be thinking about how we adapt the products that can actually meet the needs of women in order to be able to bridge that gap. The other thing I took away, which I think is really important for advisors listening to understand and I completely agree with you is someone's ability to go to work and generate the £4,000 you referenced is incumbent on the idea that their partner's actually enabling them to go and generate that kind of income. As a quick question, then how would you potentially tailor conversations to address women's specific financial concerns and needs? How would you kind of adapt your conversations to meet the specific needs of female customers?

Speaker 4:

Well, you know I don't. I I'm not a big fan of buzzwords, so you know I try and move away from buzzwords. But it is about empowering women in this scenario it is. We need to be speaking to all manner of people and just having conversations. I get onto the ins and outs of policies much further down the line. The first thing I'm doing is I'm just talking to them as people, as if they're my best friends, as if they're my family. Let's be real about this. And use stories To me. You've got to use stories with everything. So you know my friend Tricia's going through that. So everyone thinks about this. And and use stories to me. You've got to use stories with everything. So you know my friend Trisha's going through that.

Speaker 4:

So everyone thinks about cancer and that's a big fear for a lot of people and we hear the one in two statistics and all of that stuff. But what about a bad back? So, bobby, one of my advisors right, and I was the same she's got critical illness and she would not take income protection. It was too expensive and she's got quite a lot of critical illness. Now she thought and I'll be honest with you, I kind of thought as well that actually, if we get bad backs, we sit at a desk, don't we? So we can still work if we've got a bad back. So she came in to the office launch, I remember, and she was hobbling and it was like, oh, are you okay? And you know, this was obviously a few years ago now and actually she didn't get better.

Speaker 4:

That was in the October that's how I remember the timeline. She got worse and worse and worse. She had a slipped disc and she needed that removing. So this happened in the October and in the May it became excruciating. She just couldn't carry on and the NHS wouldn't be able to operate. She was going on a waiting list until January or February the following year.

Speaker 4:

Now, in the meantime the pain was so terrible that she wasn't really doing many mortgages because she just couldn't cope with the pain. She was on morphine. One night it was so terrible that she nearly fell down the stairs with the pain and called an ambulance for a bad back. Imagine Now I had thought, well, if we got bad back, we can still work. But actually when I was supporting Bobby, it felt like she was going through cancer.

Speaker 4:

She was on morphine. It was making her stomach in pain. She was asleep most days. She got three young children and she could not operate with a bad back at a desk to do mortgages, so she didn't have income protection. What did she have to do? She ended up paying privately for an operation. It was £12,000 because otherwise she was going to be off of work until at least from that May, when she knew she had to have the op till the January February and it could have been longer, who knows at the NHS list, so that 12,000 had to go on a credit card and then she's still paying that down. So it's just bringing it to life with stories.

Speaker 2:

Painting the picture of those real world scenarios. I think you're spot on. I mean, it's funny because when you talk about income protection being expensive which is funny, isn't it? Because you think, compared to what, if you look at that scenario, kind of go, actually income protection would have been an incredibly valuable investment in that point in time. And I agree with you. I think the technical elements, the limitations, the exclusions, how the policies work, that's discussed down the line.

Speaker 2:

The first thing you've got to do is absolutely right and I love what you said it's just talk to them like they're human beings, understand their world, paint a picture, help them use these examples, these cases, these stories to bring it to life and explain what would happen in those situations, because that's where the real value comes in, when they understand. If you think let's use an example of a household with a budget, right, so you've got a house with a budget what tips would you give advisors? Say, because we just talked about this idea of prioritizing the bigger income, if you've got a household, say, with two incomes, one's the female who in this scenario, is earning less. I don't want to be sort of stereotypical there, but let's assume they are how do we convince that female customer to value their own income. So what kind of tips would you offer in terms of helping that female customer to see the value of ensuring their own income when you've got these two disparate incomes in the household?

Speaker 4:

Well, again, I use stories and I use examples and I'm an example because I've been there. So in that way I guess it would be sort of easier for me. But I talk about my own situation and I've had the career break, I've been a single parent. They will know people that have. You just have to bring it to life for them and you have an answer for everything. So me and you are really good at that, I've got an answer for everything. But have an answer for everything. So me and you are really good at that, I've got an answer for everything um but have an answer for everything as an advisor.

Speaker 4:

And the first thing as an advisor, though, that you have to do and this is what I say when I talk at events and stuff, and you know to people, you know that I, that I help, um is you've got to believe, first and foremost, in these things. You've actually got to believe. So stop thinking yourself about how many policies, oh, got to satisfy the FCA, got to satisfy my network, da, da, da. Actually. Just cut all that out and actually just believe and remember that there's people at the end of this, and people that you might be giving mortgages to, you might be doing their PMI, things like that, but what you know, you could be doing a lot more for your clients. And also, the other thing that I say when I talk at events and stuff is let's not be too hard on advisors, because, actually, years ago I've been in the industry 15 years this year people were doing mortgages, and there wasn't really that thing that they should be protecting people. They were too busy with the mortgages. They're still very busy with the mortgages, but now it's kind of like FCA have changed the rules and there's more pressure. So, actually, all those old advisors from. You know, 15, 20, 25, 30 years ago there wasn't the onus to do and they didn't understand the importance. And now they're being dragged into it and actually might not have the know-how.

Speaker 4:

So the first thing you've got to do is get the know-how. Think about all the different answers, get yourself an answer for everything, whether that's you know my friend, tricia, bobby, because we've all got those situations that have gone on around us or you know Princess Kate, or the king there's examples everywhere. So have an answer for everything. Believe in the products and then you can get into the specifics and bring things to life and understand the different scenarios and what will actually happen. What would you do, what could you do? That's the title of this like little mini email thing that I do and it's like but that's a good starting point what would you do, what could you do if something happened? And don't think just because you're the lower earner, what else do you do? Because the fact of the matter is I know we said about stereotypical, but that is the situation we're never going to stop being the people that have the babies, because nature says so. So you know, it is something that we've got to be honest about.

Speaker 2:

Adapt our products, adapt our advice technique, place more value on that secondary income Because, as we said, it enables the other party to generate their income. We know that's the inevitability Names not numbers, and people not policies. I think that's a really great approach because it's the human element of protection that brings it to life, so that customers can actually see the value in how it might benefit them and their families. I think this is brilliant. I love listening to this and I think you're absolutely right, by the way, around the shift that we've had since consumer duty, around making protection front and center. Don't get me wrong, I'm passionate behind it, but I also understand where you're coming from.

Speaker 2:

In terms of advisors do get a bit of a bad rap and I think in their defense, there's not a lot of meaningful training or resources out there. You know they're just expected to now go. Oh, hey guys, yeah, I'm now an expert protection writer when in actual fact, they've been very mortgage focused for many years, and I understand the very reason why you and I do what we do. Right? I was going to ask you one last question, if that's OK, because I'm keen to sort of tap into your expertise and your knowledge. What would be probably your number one top actionable tip for advisors, male or female, that are trying to close this gender gap advisors, male or female, that are trying to close this gender gap.

Speaker 4:

Okay, so the first thing that I always say to anyone to close any gap, whether it's in your knowledge or whatever, is have a little one-to-one with yourself and if you think about when you might have a male female, you might have a female. Only you know, maybe you're a male so it's harder because, of course, it's easier for me to resonate with a female, isn't it? Because I've been through it? It's easier for me to resonate with you could become a victim because I lost my own mum when I was 19 and had to bring my 12-year-old sister up. Other people, hopefully, have not had to have that experience as an advisor, but I can use those things to resonate with my clients personally or with other advisors to help bring them up. But have a one-to-one with yourself and identify where your gaps as an advisor are. Sit in a room for 20 minutes 30 minutes, with a great big pad and a pen and just be honest with yourself. Then, when you know what your gaps are so it might be that you don't have an answer for everything. You don't have an answer because you've not actually sat and thought about well what happens if trisha's not working anymore? What happened? Trisha and john don't have school-aged children. But what if they did? What would happen there? What would happen in this scenario?

Speaker 4:

Think about all the areas where you've got gaps, and then you might have knowledge gaps as well. So how can you close those gaps? You know, um, like you said, there isn't much training around. That's why you do this stuff. That's why I started the stuff that I do, because we've realized there's gaps. And I feel sorry for advisors. I do because, also, it's a bit embarrassing, isn't it? What if they? They've been in the industry for 15 or 20 years and they're like I've got this wall and there's bricks all at the bottom missing here and there. But I can't admit that, just admit it, because the most important thing is closing the gaps in your knowledge, in your attitudes, you know. And then closing the gaps for the people out there that you can really massively make a difference for.

Speaker 4:

And then, when you make that difference for people and you start to hear back from people because we do build long relationships with our clients and I won't go into it, but Bell has just done an amazing thing for one of our clients and he's lost his wife and it's left him bringing up his 9 and 11 year old daughters and his income protection declined. And she got it sorted. She fought for him, but to get the communication back from him how it's changed his life. He can now concentrate on his children, um, rather than having to think about going back to work when he's depressed and they're going through that as a family.

Speaker 4:

It's like we have made a difference me by sorting it all out, and Bella, because she was like I am not taking this decline, I am fighting, and she did so. When you do that, it will really, you know, hammer it home for you, but you can make a difference to lives and to your own business because you will make more money. You know I love making money. Don't get me wrong, I'm not here just for charity work, but I also love making a difference to lives, whether that's advisors or clients.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, there's no better job is there where you can earn as much as you'd hand write, but it's yet doing a brilliant job for people. It's fantastic. So I love about what you said and I think that's one of the best tips I've heard in a long time is this idea of being introspective, so like analyzing yourself, having a genuine long card, cold look at yourself in the mirror and saying, okay, well, where are my gaps? Where am I potentially letting my customers down? Because once you understand where those are, you can focus on how you develop yourself, how you can improve your skills, and then you know that the outcome of that is always going to be making better decisions for customers, helping them to see the value in what you do and producing brilliant outcomes, like you talked about. So, oh, that's fantastic. So you mentioned, obviously you're doing some training and some resources for advisors. Where can the audience that are listening find you? Are you on? Which social media platforms are you on and how can they look for you?

Speaker 4:

Okay, so I'm not very good at the marketing side of things yet, you know, caveat. So I'm only ever doing this once a year and it really just came about because people were constantly then asking me for advice and I could only help them with little tidbits here and there. So I decided to formulate it's a bit like when you you won't know about this, matt, but when you're having a baby so you're pregnant, you're happy, you go into labour. You get having a baby so you're pregnant, you're happy, you go into labor. You get part way through, it starts getting a bit painful and you think I don't want to do this anymore. I want to go back, but it's just too late.

Speaker 4:

And that's what happened to me with this course. I thought right, advisors need it, and I'm not talking about what you do. The whole thing is, you know, 10, 12 weeks. It's not about how to position things. There's a bit of that and obviously I've asked you to come on and everything, but it's more than that. It's helping with the pain points. Really, it's a tough industry. There's a lot of regulation, there's a lot of admin, there's a lot of overwhelm, and then where do you get the leads, the people to speak to?

Speaker 4:

And how do you do that and how do you come up with a brand points for advisors? So I haven't yet launched this year's. I did last year's. I don't know the date yet, but you can join the waiting list. You can contact me on LinkedIn, you can go on to our website, which is vmis, velvetmortgageinsureservicescouk and things like that, and you can get in touch and I'll add you to the waiting list.

Speaker 4:

The problem I have with all of this is, yes, we need to be doing more. Yes, we need to be treating customers fairly consumer duty, all of that but let's make it where we're not bashing advisors. Let's help them learn more. Let's help them feel comfortable that they don't know what they need to know to do an amazing job in this area, and let's make the culture that, whereas At the moment, I think it would be a bit embarrassing for them to put their hands up and admit that they don't really know it. But I completely get it. So, and the only reason I'm so passionate about it would I be the same if I hadn't lost my mum the day after I was 19? Probably not. No, it is because of what I went through. So I don't judge anybody for having concentrated on getting people the mortgages. That because that's really what clients want.

Speaker 2:

They don't want the protection. But you've channeled it into something really positive, which is great, and I guess, from my perspective, I kind of love the philosophy there, which is, in, as an industry, the only way we can actively bridge the gender gap is what we've been talking about today is if we actually focus on okay, well, why is it, why is it where it is, and how can we support the advice community in doing it? So, rather than bashing people we all know there's a gender gap, so, rather than bashing people, someone's a gender gap, this should be, this should be less Great. We all get it. So it's a bit like doing these conversations. This is why these types of conversations are so important, because what we're really trying to do is open up the door and make it easier for advisors to actually go and practically go and do something about it, because otherwise, otherwise, we'll all be sitting here in a year's time saying, well, there's still a gender gap and we're still not doing anything about it. So you're absolutely right, rather than bashing, it's about what resources and what guidance and what support can we give to people to make these conversations easier and to help them to do these types of things.

Speaker 2:

So it's been an absolute, genuine pleasure. I mean, you and I have known each other for years anyway, so I was delighted to hear that you were coming on today. So I just wanted to say huge thank you, joanna. Really appreciate you coming on today. You're always insightful, always full of amazing tips and guidance for advisors, so anyone that's interested in learning more about what Jo does please hit her up, visit vmiscouk. And once again, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

Speaker 4:

That's all right, my dear Thank you. Thanks for having me on okay.

Speaker 1:

so now it's time for your questions, and this month we have an anonymous question by email. But just as a reminder, if you want to feature on a future episode, please do go to speakpipecom. Forward slash let's talk ip podcast to send us a voice note, or you can email us on info at iptfcouk. So, matt, here's the question do you think that the industry is doing enough to educate and engage women on the importance of protecting their income, and how can we better tailor the conversations to resonate with them?

Speaker 2:

Well, I think probably the industry isn't doing enough, otherwise there wouldn't be a gender gap. I think that's pretty evident in the question itself. You know we wouldn't be needing to ask the question if there wasn't an issue, but I do think there's definitely change happening. I do think everyone's acutely aware of it. You know, the research that the IPTF did made it very clear, and obviously what Rose and both Joe were talking about earlier makes it very clear that there is this potential gap in in addressing those needs. And I think what we need to be thinking about in terms of telling the conversation goes back to a lot of what joe was saying when I was interviewing her, which is this idea that we need to really highlight the fact that actually most of the female customers we're dealing with, if they're in a traditional situation, are probably going to be the ones that have to have time off to look after kids. We recognize there's going to be a career break, but that doesn't mean that what they do in the household or the income they do generate is any less important for the you know the ongoing needs of the household.

Speaker 2:

I think often there is this misconception that, okay, well, if you've got a high earning partner, that that's where all the focus needs to be.

Speaker 2:

But clearly, as we said, someone's ability to go to work and actually generate that level of income is incumbent on the idea that they've got this support in the background.

Speaker 2:

It's like I know when I was growing up, if I look at my mum and my dad and they were very much a traditional household environment with my dad being the primary breadwinner and my mum pretty much doing a lot of the stuff around the house that there was no way that my dad could ever do what he was doing if it wasn't for my mum in the background supporting him.

Speaker 2:

And that's not to say that every couple's in the same situation, and I'm certainly not trying to generalize, but I do think it's about, like Joe said, bringing these conversations to life. It's about really trying to demonstrate through logic and less emotion-based conversations and more logic-based conversations around in your household. If this was to happen this is what's likely to happen or, using the examples that Joe gave in the interview, where it's very clear that the emphasis was not on what we thought or even actually a minor injury such as a slipped disc that could potentially start getting much worse, could have a significant and quite serious impact on a household's finances. So I think it's about less tailoring the conversation necessarily to women and probably actually more including their value in the conversation a bit more. Maybe that's probably the best way of approaching it, including their value in the conversation a bit more.

Speaker 1:

Maybe that's probably the best way of approaching it. Great, matt. Now let's break this down into these actionable takeaways for our three different levels of advisors that might be listening. So can you give us those, matt, and then give us a nice conclusion so we can walk away from this feeling like yes, we're going to close this gap?

Speaker 2:

Excellent, of course, right. So we'll start off with what I would probably label as the more inexperienced advisors. Either those advisors are new to protection sales or maybe a little less experienced, or have just started out on their journey of writing more income protection business. I think the top tips I'd take away from both my conversation with Jo and with Rose would probably be to focus on prioritization. So we know that many women prioritize other things within their household family, pets, netflix but they do that over their own financial security. So, again, using those real life examples to highlight the importance of income protection is the foundation of the financial wellbeing and actually highlighting that it's the income that pays for those subscriptions and pets and insurances and things. So, making it personal, I think it's really important that you know women often see themselves as protectors. You know Rose mentioned the comment of lionesses. It's really important that we position IP as a way to ensure their family's financial stability, even if they're unable to work, and I often use examples of how we can use the customer's situation to bring it to life for them. So do it in a highly personal way. For example, you know, making sure that you've got income coming from the household so that Timmy can still go to soccer practice, because we know those types of things are more likely to resonate with a caring mum who's got that lioness role, educating on value-added benefits. We said 69% of women don't even know about GP services, mental health support or even nurse-led advice, and these are yet highly valued. I've even got an that I'm going to use in a bit when we talk on some more experienced ones. But we even know. I'll do the example now if you like. It makes it easier. So I had an employee a while back when we had the advice business, called Jenny, and her child was quite ill one time and she was really struggling to get a GP appointment. This is just after COVID and obviously we just suggested that she use the GP services that she had within her policy and she, honestly, she raved about it for months and then she kept telling all of the customers about it because she saw the value in it, because it meant that she could see a doctor very quickly and got that peace of mind to know that her daughter was okay. So again, thinking from a female perspective, particularly in that mothering role, that's really important and typically, believe it or not, most people would expect to pay £50 a month for things like 24-7 GP services when they've been interviewed. So naturally, advisors can use that same technique to try and create value by asking how much do you think this would be or how much would you pay for 24-7 GP services? When they do so, suddenly the premiums of the policy seem like exceptional value for money because it includes this additional benefit.

Speaker 2:

I also think using simple language. So if you're new to this, use simple language. Use examples that break it down, that make it very simple. Don't try and overcomplicate it, don't try and overburden the customer. The key is to use very simple language and positioning so that females can understand what you're talking about.

Speaker 2:

I often use the example of COVID and furlough and how furlough is essentially just a glorified income protection contract because it's a very simple way to explain how the policy provides benefit. You can't go to work just like when you're in lockdown. Percentage of your income gets paid, just like furlough, straight away. It's a very simple one. So let's move on to now the more competent advisors, those who are trying to grow in confidence and their success in the income protection writing business. So making sure that they work with female customers to address this. It's not a priority mindset. So, with the survey that 32% of women say that income protection isn't something they've got around to yet survey that 32% of women say that income protection isn't something they've got around to Yet income is so crucial in terms of keeping a household going. So I think advisors need to use these open-ended questions to really try and understand why they think it's not a priority and how you can bring it to the fore for them.

Speaker 2:

Leveraging life events we just heard some incredible examples from Joe on that interview. So we know women experience major financial milestones career breaks, home moves, raising children, potentially becoming the main earner of the household and then potentially not being the main earner anymore once they've gone through a childbirth situation. So use those moments or those potential life events to kind of trigger discussions with them. I think risk and resilience and highlighting that's really important. You know, if you think in terms of language, resilience sounds very, very, very favorable if you're a lioness and you're trying to run a household. But you know, we know that 65% of women couldn't afford their household bills beyond three months if they lost their income. So it's again really anchoring back to that and saying, look, it's really important that you reframe the conversation around security and control. You know, is their household very reliant on theirs or their partner's income? If so, it's really important that you anchor that down.

Speaker 2:

And naturally we heard, didn't we, from Rose that you know female customers prefer that face-to-face conversation. So if we know 49%, so nearly half, of women prefer that interaction, make sure you offer that personal engagement, build that trust with them through conversational, consultative approach rather than that sales approach, because I think that's going to resonate far better with a female audience. And one thing I'd say is a top tip for those middle ground advisors make sure both parties are on the call. I hear it a lot when I'm doing my coaching work where I have advisors saying, oh, it's very difficult because I can only get one party on the call, typically the male counterpart. So it's very important that both parties are on the call, mainly because you can then engage with the female customer. She's going to hear all of what's being said and is actually actively involved in the decision making process. The danger of speaking to one party then translates that for the other party and decisions are made when you're not available and can give best advice.

Speaker 2:

Now for the highly advanced advisors, for those that are really looking to maximise their impact. I think it's really important to do the following things. Firstly, tackle assumptions. Don't assume that women aren't interested in protection. Why wouldn't they be as caregivers, as those lionesses that want to look after their family, why wouldn't they? We know that 61% are potentially concerned about income loss. So shift that conversation from value and peace of mind to their families. I think that's going to resonate really well with them. Encourage them to protect themselves first and that will protect the family. So I often use this example, particularly for experience advisors. Use the example of you know, on an aeroplane and they talk about making sure that you fit your own oxygen mask before those of others. That's a very valid argument and I think what we should be saying to female customers is you know, there is often a preference to protect family, children, but you can't do that if you don't protect yourself first. So put your own oxygen mask on first, protect yourself first, then you can protect the household that you've built.

Speaker 2:

Use value added benefits. I say this all the time. I think, particularly if you've got an audience, that those resonate well with those. Experienced advisors understand that women value those value-added benefits more than men. That's pretty evident in the research. So position them as immediate use benefits that create value around the plan as in something you can execute and use immediately, regardless of the need to claim or not. So it's day one value for money, and I think it's really important to build long-term relationships. Joe mentioned it in the interview Women are far more likely to respond to advisors who offer those ongoing reviews and have that ongoing relationship because it's seen as something that's far more intrinsic than just a sales process.

Speaker 2:

And I think promoting protection in the gig economy is really important. You know, the fastest growing workforce segment in the UK is female entrepreneurs. Believe it or not, many lose workplace benefits when moving from an employed role to self-employed. So it's really important to highlight things like income protection as that essential financial safety net, and I think really it's a sort of a summary of all of that. I think it's by focusing on women's priorities above all else, by leveraging those life events that we know they're going to go through and reinforcing the importance of financial resilience, advisors can be better placed to bridge that gender gap and help more women secure their financial futures, regardless of what life throws at them. Fantastic, matt, there we go everyone. Hashtag protect that pride.

Speaker 1:

I'm going to put it out there again and get it going. I love that analogy of the lionesses, especially when you consider that the lionesses are the ones that are the hunter gatherers as well. So let's wrap everything up. Uh, that's it for this month's. Let's talk income protection. Please do rate and review us if you can on apple podcast. It really helps to show out and please do share the podcast with your colleagues and spread the word if you're enjoying it. We are really close to reaching 3,000 downloads in total now, so it all helps in spreading the message of IEP.

Speaker 1:

In other news, this month, the IEPTF will be providing content focused on accident sickness and unemployment cover, or ASU, for all of you who are potentially unfamiliar with it, and we'll be sharing our first video on our seven claims story project, which draws on real life experiences and insights from IPTF members to showcase what a seamless and supportive income protection claims journey should look like for both policy holders and advisors. So if you're not following the IPTF on LinkedIn, instagram or YouTube, do that now. All links are in the podcast description below, along with a link to the Research by the IPTF profile of an IP customer mentioned at the top of the show. And finally, do remember to claim your unstructured CPD points for the episode. And if you're not subscribed, why not do so now on your podcast platform of choice? Let's Talk IP is produced by Sea Studios, and I'm Stevie Arnoldi and I'm Matt Chapman. See you next month for more let's Talk. Income Protection.