Let's Talk Income Protection

How Your Mindset Can Make or Break Your Income Protection Advice

• Income Protection Task Force • Season 2 • Episode 1

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Let's Talk Income Protection is back for Season 2 and we're bigger and better than ever. Bigger episodes, bigger insight and even more Matt Chapman plus a new co-host, Stevie Arnoldi from SEA Studios, the new Content Associate for the IPTF.

In this month's episode, we focus on Mindset and Time to Talk Day, the nation’s biggest mental health conversation. It’s a day for friends, families, communities and workplaces to come together to talk, listen and change lives which is run by Mind and Rethink Mental Illness.

Do you ever catch yourself assuming clients will say no before you’ve even had the conversation? Your mindset could be the biggest factor holding you back from success in Income Protection. In this episode, we break down the biggest mindset traps advisers fall into and how to reframe them for better results.

We're also joined by an expert guest, Anish Patel from Aniche Mortgages to discuss his mindset journey from an "ok" to a "confident and assured" adviser before answering your questions and providing you with actionable advice to improve your mindset and skills.

So if you want to:

  • Improve your mindset in financial advice
  • Overcome objections when advising on insurance
  • Improve your Income protection advice strategies

This is the podcast for you! 

Got a mindset trap you’ve struggled with? Let us know! Drop us a message on the links below or tag us on LinkedIn (@IPTF) with your thoughts. Don’t forget to subscribe for more expert insights!

Links from the episode:

Anish Patel Mortgages on Instagram

📣 Send the podcast your questions, thoughts or advice to feature on a future episode via:

Voice notes via SpeakPipe
Or email Info@IPTF.co.uk

📣 For More Education, Collaboration and Insight:

IPTF Website
IPTF on LinkedIn
IPTF on YouTube
IP Task Force on Instagram

Produced and edited by SEA Studios

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to let's Talk IP Season 2. That's right, we are back. This is the podcast that breaks down everything you need to know about income protection, whether you're an experienced advisor or just starting out. This podcast will give you actionable insight and advice and, of course, gain valuable unstructured CPT points. I'm Stevie Anoldi from Sea Studios, the IPTF's new content associate and your new co-host for Season 2. And I'm joined as always by the, the protection coach himself, matt Chapman. How are you doing, matt?

Speaker 2:

I'm doing really well, Stevie, great to have you as a co-host. How exciting.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolute pleasure to be here and joining you on this journey, and today we're kicking things off with something that can either drive success or hold you back completely Mindset. So, coming up in today's show, matt and I are going to dive deep into this topic and around time to talk day. We then have an interview with Anish Patel from Anish Mortgages. Tell us a bit more about that, matt.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so Anish was a coaching client of mine for many, many months and it's incredible to see the difference that he's made by going on this journey through his mindset so where he first started out as an advisor and his kind of perceptions around insurance, to where he's at now, where he sees things like income protection as being an integral part of his advice process. And I think it's going to be really exciting for us to hear from him directly about the mindset journey that he's been on and the difference it's made to his advice and the protecting of his own customers Amazing.

Speaker 1:

Looking forward to that, matt. We then listen to your messages and answer your burning questions, and if you want to feature on a future episode, go to speakpipecom, forward slash letstalkippodcast and leave us a voice note or email us at info at iptfcouk. After that, we give you your actionable takeaways, which will be aimed at different levels of ip knowledge, before matt wraps everything up with his conclusions. All this and more to come on this month's let's talk ip, but before we start with these eight common mindset traps, because today is time to talk, day that's uh, thursday, the 6th of feb 2025 which is run by mind and rethink mental illness. It's the nation's biggest mental health conversation. It's a day for friends, families, communities and workplaces to come together to talk, listen and change change lives.

Speaker 1:

Now, matt, we've spoken before behind the scenes, when I was producing season one with you, about our mental health and our mindset. You know it's a topic that both of us take really seriously. We care about I might kick things off, actually, how mind has a really special place in my heart. So I've suffered with mental health issues all my life, and after university I was at my lowest ebb. I'd had a couple of years back home and I moved to London for work, but I was really struggling. I finally reached out for help and actually it was the start of my mental health journey and it's, you know, it's meant I've got to where I am today and I'm really proud of this.

Speaker 1:

But, however, when I did do that, I felt like I'd failed. You know, I felt like I wasn't strong enough to be able to sort things out on my own, which I know now is wrong. It was actually, you know, a courageous thing to do. It was a strong thing to do, and I'm proud of myself for asking for help, which is, you know, this is an example of mindset. You know, this switch of how I viewed a moment in my life from negative to positive, and, matt, I know that you were brave enough very recently to share on LinkedIn that you were not 100% either, so do you mind telling us a bit more about that?

Speaker 2:

No, of course not. So I'm sure you're probably aware towards the end of last year, and I'd had a very, very successful year. So it's almost as if you couldn't contribute it, or what I was feeling to work in particular. Ironically, at the point when I made the post I was probably feeling a little bit better, but I just wanted to share that that moment with everybody, not least of all because I just wanted everyone else to know that it's absolutely OK to feel these things.

Speaker 2:

And there is this perception. You know, you look on social media, you look on the TV, you look whatever, and everyone seems to have their stuff together. They're doing really well, but that's perception, and everyone seems to have their stuff together. They're doing really well, but that's perception. Right, and I think it's really important that you recognize that if you're not feeling okay, it's okay to not be okay.

Speaker 2:

And I think for me, the most liberating thing of all is accepting that you might not be perfect in these areas and thinking what can I do about it?

Speaker 2:

And I go back to your point and I think you made the point beautifully, very eloquently, which is it's not weak to do that and for me the hardest thing I don't know about you. But the hardest thing for me, stevie, was not being able to put my finger on the problem. Yeah, I didn't know why. I didn't feel great. Everything, everything around me seemed great, like my home life was doing okay, career wise I was doing okay, and so half the time I don't think it's as obvious as we might think it is and we may self-diagnose the wrong way, we might misdiagnose ourselves and think well, it's that, when in actual fact it's something else. So I think the key here is just being open, being honest, not being afraid to ask for help, not seeing it as a sign of weakness, and just accepting that we all go through these mental health journeys, because a problem shared is a problem halved right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, 100%. I problem shared is a problem. Halved right? Yeah, 100, I think there's. There's also the the issue of speaking positively to yourself, you know, and not having this, this negative voice in your head, sort of beating yourself up. It's so easy to do, you know, we've all been sort of conditioned to want to be better, want to be perfect, but perfect does not exist. And noticing things that maybe you want to change and improve is great, but not beating yourself up about it, it doesn't serve you at all.

Speaker 2:

What's the expression? Comparison is the thief of joy, right, and I think the biggest problem that a lot of us have is that we compare ourselves and where we're at in our lives and what we're doing to everyone else that we see around us. We've all got to be cognizant of the fact that we're on our own journeys and you shouldn't be too hard on yourself own journeys and you shouldn't be too hard on yourself. You should just be grateful and thankful for the journey you've been on and all the things that you've experienced teach you about what you're going to do next and how you apply in your world. I think, like you were saying, I think that's one of the things that I've been on. So at the start of this journey I did a post about this at the beginning of the year. I'm on a bit of an attitude of gratitude this year about kind of almost being like right, you know what, I am so lucky to do the job that I do and to to experience the things that I experience.

Speaker 2:

But sometimes when you're sitting in that negative mindset and you've got that negative voice in your head, that little person on your shoulder saying those things to you, you kind of go oh you haven't done enough, or or you should be doing more, or or you're not where you should be.

Speaker 2:

If you focus on what you want, you forget to see what you've got.

Speaker 2:

The danger is, what happens is you have a sort of bit of a flare up from a mental health perspective, or, you know, maybe you have a night where you've drunk a bit too much and all these emotions bubble up to the surface and something happens. And it's at that moment when we all go, oh, I need help, right, I think it's almost like a trigger event, yeah, and so we tend to focus on that as being the point when we go. Well, actually I need to recognize I need help, and so I would almost encourage anyone listening that it's not in those moments that you need to go and you know, go and seek the support. It's actually in the calm bits in between where you can really unpack the things that create those trigger events for you, so that you can actually get yourself into a positive mindset and a positive mental health space, so that you're more resilient to those changes, to those events that happen, and actually you're unpacking them in a way where you can actually do the root cause analysis and not act emotionally or off kilter.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, 100%. Going back to one of your other points about you know Instagram reality and that you know comparison. You know we're going to talk a little bit more later in the show about the dangers of your phone, the time sap that it can be, but also this mental sap it can be, where you can compare yourself to others. So that's why I just want to say it's really brave of you as someone who, from the outside, would look like they're succeeding and everything's all happy and it's a great life. But we're all in the same boat together. We're all going through these problems together and once you realize that what you see on social media is just one tiny slice of it, you can you can put it all into perspective no, I completely agree, and I think for me, the number one thing here is to make small, meaningful change.

Speaker 2:

It's not to try and overwhelm yourself by thinking there is a silver bullet solution to all these problems, and I don't believe there is, and I think anyone that suggests otherwise is quite frankly lying. The whole premise of the training course is this podcast. Anything is is to try and help you make those minuscule improvements that compound over time. So it might be well I'm going to put my phone down 15 minutes earlier tonight, I'm going to go to bed 10 minutes earlier, I'm going to go for a walk before bed, I'm going to cut out that drink. And I think the biggest problem is and it's a great time to have this conversation, because we're at the point of the year when a lot of people break their New Year's resolutions with the idea of new year's resolutions. Right, and I simply say that because what you're doing is you're setting yourself up to fail. Right, because if you, if you want to make a change, make it today. You have to wait till new year's day to do it. Make a change today. Just make a small one that you can actually manage and administer.

Speaker 2:

The problem is when you do these kind of new year's resolution style changes, where you're putting a lot of pressure on yourself to improve in a way that is quite difficult, the minute you you don't, or the minute you slip, it becomes, oh, the whole thing's a waste of time and everyone seems to regress. So really, what this is about for me is those smaller changes that you know you can administer and sustain, and the same goes for your protection, advice and your development and everything else. It's the small changes that you can actually keep sustaining, that you can create that meaningful long-term change. So you're forcing positive habits as opposed to negative habits, because when you do that, you'll see over time the positive change. It's like a hockey stick, right. You see that whole kind of curve up where everyone improves. For those of you who are listening, by the way, I did actually do a curve with my hand there.

Speaker 2:

But you can actually you can see the improvements over time because they're small to implement and easy to keep going rather than trying to overload yourself with stuff.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, another small habit I've been trying to change is is my relationship with my, my phone. I had started putting my phone in a different room when I went to bed because I found that when I was having trouble sleeping at night probably because I was on my phone too much before it anyway I was reaching for my phone and then obviously staying up longer. It doesn't help. Literally, within a few weeks, I'm already experiencing much better sleep just from doing that one change and you spoke about that. You know that one being 1% better every day and actually how these small, habitual changes add up, and that's real progress over this all or nothing thinking that people get stuck into, matt.

Speaker 1:

I wanted to move on a little bit to the advisors, the people that are listening, and you know some of the things that they might be going through. For advisors, they're often dealing with some of the most difficult and heart-wrenching life-changing moments for their clients. Either they're discussing the potential of these things happening to them or it has happened, and you know they're dealing with a claim and the distress that the family is going through. It must be pretty tough, right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and it can take an emotional toll on advisors and I think often we forget that you know we forget that you know you could be dealing with very uncomfortable situations. You've almost got to bear that on your shoulders. As stressful as that might sound, there is nothing worse than someone coming to you who's going through a claim experience or is going through a life changing event and they didn't have the protection they needed. But yeah, I think for advisors out there, the hardest thing is rejection. Part of what we're trying to do, both with let's talk ip and with the training course and everything else, is help advisors see there are better ways of doing this. Work doesn't have to feel like that, because we all know rejection can feel very unpleasant and I will almost guarantee that lots of advisors out there listening to this podcast will be in this situation.

Speaker 2:

They start doing a bit of protection alongside, say, a mortgage or even wealth advice. So let's say they were a mortgage advisor. They're doing the protection because they're never shown the right way of doing it. They try and bring a protection. They may have a couple of successes because people are quite receptive, but they get a couple of knockbacks and then when they get the knockbacks. It dents their confidence and they don't feel very good because no one rejects to the mortgage.

Speaker 2:

But people will reject the protection in theory. So then they get a couple of rejections and of course they then start to back off because nobody likes to be told no. So they back off a bit, they do less and less and less and then they lose all the confidence associated with talking about protection. But because of these rejections and these objections and the experiences they had, fail to want to bring up protection because they're worried about how that conversation is going to go. And it doesn't have to be that way, because once you've learned the right way of doing it, those feelings go away. But there will be advisors out there thinking that, steve, I guarantee it, yeah 100%, matt.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, that was really nice for us to have this chat on air for a change. I don't think we're going to get the chance to do this again this season as we dive into other topics.

Speaker 2:

But it's been a pleasure venting and getting this all out with you live on air. Likewise, mate, likewise. I think it's very healthy to do that, and if all it does it just serves a bit of inspiration for the listeners that they're not alone and it's okay to not be okay, I think then we've done our job very effectively.

Speaker 1:

Let's bring it back to the advisor, matt. Let's talk about these eight common mindset traps now. If you've ever thought clients just aren't interested in this or price is always going to be the biggest barrier, then this episode is for you, because, whether you realize it or not, your mindset plays a massive role in how well you engage with clients and advise protection 100%.

Speaker 2:

I mean it's funny. When I do these coaching sessions with firms and I ask a lot of these questions, you'll see all the advisors nodding their heads and agreeing because we all know we're doing it. We just maybe don't admit that we're doing it or maybe we're not fully aware or conscious of these biases that we've got. So it's really funny when you ask the questions and advisors are going oh, do you know? Yeah, I'm guilty of that one, I'm guilty of that one. So, as we go through, it'll be interesting for the listeners to actually be honest with themselves about are they falling foul of these potential mindset traps? Because, yeah, I think we all do at some point.

Speaker 1:

Well, there we go. That's your first actionable insight while you're listening to these advisors. Put a tick or write these down. If you are doing one of these things, so let's jump straight into it, matt. So number one assuming quotes are too expensive. Now, I think this is quite a tough one to start at, matt, because I think from my side, as a potential client, I would worry about price, especially during a time where cost of living is through the roof. How can advisors combat this?

Speaker 2:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

So the real thing that sits behind this is the advisor themselves putting their own premium bias around the quotes they're issuing to the customer, and they're naturally communicating in a way where they're always and sometimes they'll even offer cheaper alternatives in the email or within the quote system, because they're already conceiving that this is too expensive for the customer.

Speaker 2:

So the first thing there is being aware that you might have that premium bias and kind of eradicating it. But, going to your point there around, as a customer, of course you're going to think something's expensive, or you're going to think something's cheap, or you're going to think something's reasonable, depending on how it's presented to you Right and how it is compared relative to other things in your life. So a lot of this is around the advisor's positioning skills, around the advisor's ability to create the connection between income and outcome and expenditure, so that when you look at the investment you're making in income protection, it's essentially negligible compared to the potential losses or you not being able to cover those living costs that you were just referring to. So again, this is a perception issue. That's the whole point there.

Speaker 1:

It's interesting that you mentioned the advice process and getting a know getting a mortgage. So for mortgage advisors who are out there you know obviously they're someone who's maybe not as a fee with income protection that might be an afterthought right. It might be after this mortgage is in place. I'm assuming that's not the way you would recommend going about it. How would they get these conversations about IP in at an earlier stage? What would be the advice process you think people should follow?

Speaker 2:

So what this is about is understanding the relationship between income and the customer's ability to achieve the goals and the outcomes that they've come to you for in the first place. And we know there's a relationship between income and one's ability to borrow. So what I tend to do is encourage advice and it's all laid out in the blueprint is to use this idea of like an income stress test. So when you're going through the affordability with a customer and you're telling the customer roughly what you think they can borrow, the idea there is to connect the dots between the income they've got coming in, their ability to achieve that level of borrowing capability. So then you'd say, right, okay, so if we remove this income, what does it do to the affordability? Oh, screws it up. Okay, so this income we're using to get you this mortgage for the term that I'm recommending, is it guaranteed for the entire duration of the borrowing period? No, right, in that case we really ought to ring fence that income.

Speaker 2:

So the idea is connecting the dots for the customer so they understand the relationship. And this is what's crazy, right? So we talked about oh, it's too expensive, or you know, matt, I'd be worried about money. Well, I would say to you to counter that, steve, that you've given up a third of your life on this planet a third of your life, your precious hours and your minutes and your days that you could be doing whatever you want to, if I'm lucky, if you're lucky, yeah, absolutely. That's why you need protection In the pursuit of that same income that we're talking about protecting.

Speaker 2:

If your boss came to you in your job and said I will guarantee your income for the rest of your working life as in, you don't need to worry about your income sources anymore, yeah, I'm going to worry about it, your bills will be paid, but the only way I can do that is you've got to take a 5% cut in pay. Would you do it? And I would say 99% of people would say yes. It's the same principle. We're focusing on the income, securities, the valuable bit, and then the investment needed to do that is almost negligible in comparison, but positioned and packaged that way and it is an investment, not a cost as an expense or a budget or a premium people will see way more value in it. I think this is the mindset trap that I'm trying to get advisors to break free of, because it changes the dynamic of conversations forever it's interesting.

Speaker 1:

I think it's all linked together. So it's about building this, the story around it, the need for it earlier and it not being this separate thing that's done afterwards, after the factory go. Oh, do I even need this speaking of? Do you even need it? What about workplace benefits and sick pay? This is actually two twofer, this is two and three, matt. Oftentimes these benefits and this sick pay can look really really good. Why would I even need anything else?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, and I even heard Gary Waters talk about this a while back and he's absolutely spot on. The danger is that most advisors go in there and try and poo-poo these benefits right. They try and say, oh, they're not good enough, they're not sufficient enough, whereas what they should be doing is looking at it as a positive tool. Any customer that's got workplace benefits he's probably quite proud of the fact and recognizes the value of those benefits. But I would also argue that in most cases those benefits are woefully shy of what the customer actually needs in terms of their financial resilience. But let's use sick pay as a prime example. So I see this all the time. When I'm coaching advisors, they go oh you know, I get customers that work for the council or for the NHS and they've got great sick pay. I mean, I've got clients that work for Jaguar, land Rover and they get 104 weeks of full sick pay, right. So you would instantly assume and often these guys are in this job, they've been here for 20 years and you're thinking to yourself it's not as if they're going to go and change jobs and go and work for a competitor or something. So they've got that sick pay locked in Now.

Speaker 2:

Anyone listening to this might think, oh well, you just give up at the point and you just say I'm not going to do anything about that, whereas actually what you should be doing is looking at that as a potential benefit. This is fantastic news. It's great that you've got that sick pay in place, so we're applauding the fact they've got it, not trying to be combative. We should take advantage of that sick pay. We can get you access to full term lifelong cover that's going to give you total financial resilience often way more cost effectively than it is for most people, because we can afford to delay it thanks to the sick pay that you've got. So you've, then, given that client that lifelong financial resilience, but what you've done is you've utilized those benefits to your advantage to create even more value, and often with sick pay.

Speaker 2:

I think there's a misconception around things like sick pay, group schemes, things like that, and I don't think you should poo-poo them. I don't think you should ignore them, but I often try to encourage advisors to help clients treat it like icing on the cake, rather something that they can rely on wholeheartedly, and the reason I do that is because it's often unlikely that many people will stay with the same employer and there's a real inherent risk that if someone moves from one job to another, is this individual planning to stay with this employer, are these benefits guaranteed, or actually is it something that we can explore to look around how we can plug some of these gaps or even potentially ignore them, potentially on the basis of the customer plans on moving jobs later on?

Speaker 1:

Well, excuse me, matt, I'm just going to Google jobs at Jaguar. But again, we're linking back to this mindset of turning negatives into positives and looking at how can you reframe something that's really positive for the client and make it an even bigger positive, and how it all links together. So, matt, this is a big one now, the assumption that the clients will just say no. And I've got a bit of a personal story here. So, to be frank, my first introduction of insurance came after buying my first home and I felt it was sold to me and it was right. After getting the mortgage in place, and suddenly it was this add-on at the end I didn't know if I needed it, it wasn't clear in the end, and I think either we did say no or we just got the bare basics. So it's safe to say the advisor got it completely wrong. So how do advisors get out of this mindset that clients are just going to say no?

Speaker 2:

I think what you've just touched on there is a very valid point. You look at the language that we use. We talk about selling protection and arranging mortgages and arranging pensions, right. There is this whole misconception that it's a sales process and what happened in your experience there, stevie, was that the customer goes through this advice process. Protection is probably not really brought up much. Maybe it's mentioned at the beginning in the idd or it's something we might talk about, but the advisor is so concerned about objections and rejection that they skirt past it because they're fearful of damaging the rapport or the relationship they've built with the customer.

Speaker 2:

You don't bring it up as an afterthought. It is completely threaded through all the areas of your advice. It it is just an extension of your advice. The customer doesn't feel ambushed. They don't feel like they're being persuaded Because advisors perceive the customer's going to say no. They actually end up creating that very same situation, because what happens is the slight, subtle changes in tone of voice, expression, the way they carry themselves, where actually they're giving the customer the perception that this is anything less than essential and it is optional.

Speaker 2:

If it was, I'd have brought it up earlier. I'd have actually made a big deal of talking to you about the relationship of income and your ability to borrow, but all we're trying to do is give them genuine advice, and we know, as advisors right, that income, the ability to support yourself, the ability to invest, the ability to get your borrowing and pay for it, the ability to put food on the table are integral to anybody's goals in life. And so if we just do our jobs properly and we advise the way we should and not fear that customers are going to say no or fear they're going to worry about budget, and we just do it properly, as a doctor would when they give out a prescription, then customers will far more likely say yes and they'll do so without these potential objections and rejections.

Speaker 1:

Most people will have questions when getting a quote for IP. Surely just anticipating objections is quite normal.

Speaker 2:

No, I don't think we should anticipate objections. I think what we should do is we should proactively look to try and remove the likelihood of them. My advice to anyone listening is to think about when you do encounter these objections. Don't see it as a negative, because this is how we develop. This is how we get better. But I think the idea that you're going into meetings assuming objections or assuming the client's going to say no is same as doing these kind of like New Year's resolutions. You're setting yourself up to fail because you're expecting it. You're expecting negativity and you're going in with a negative mindset, whereas you should be expecting a yes response because you've done the groundwork to create the value and if the client does object, like I said again, positive mindset, right, okay, why? What's the root cause? How can I overcome that and stop that from happening in the future, which means you're only going to get better and reduce the likelihood of it happening? And two again okay, I'm sorry, maybe I didn't explain it properly. Talk to me about why you feel that way.

Speaker 1:

Is that a stupid question to ask? You know, should you ask for feedback?

Speaker 2:

I think you should. We should be saying okay, all right. Well, you've said no initially. Talk me through why you think that's not important. Or did I not explain it correctly? Did I not demonstrate this? Do you mind if we just go back over, Because I'm really interested to understand why you think this way. I feel like I haven't explained it to you properly and you can open up the door to a conversation. I often say to advisors that we should be having a different mindset when it comes to protection, and the mindset should be it's not that we have to sell, persuade or convince the customer to take protection. They should be persuading and convincing us why they don't need it. So it's almost like okay, you want to take on a debt for 35 years and this debt requires you to have X amount of money in the bank every single month just to pay the debt, let alone your other bills. Convince me how you're going to have that money.

Speaker 1:

So, matt, I'm going to do a bit of pushing back here, because I understand what you're saying. I think it's valuable to get the client to sort of tell you why they shouldn't, but how can advisors actually do this in a way that feels comfortable for them? Because obviously you've got lots of experience, you don't mind doing that pushback.

Speaker 2:

Oh, absolutely, and please understand that I do not want advisors to go out there and start being combative or persuasive with customers. It's not what it's about. What it's about is using what I would refer to as logic based arguments, right? So the problem with emotion and a lot of advisors go into protection conversations thinking emotionally OK, so you know, we talk about loved ones and protecting people. And don't get me wrong, you're absolutely right. The danger of focusing on emotion above all else is that and I have had this happen to me Someone said to me once well, I don't care what happens to my family when I'm dead. I'm dead, and that's horrible to hear from someone, but that's someone's genuine attitude towards protection, right? So straight away I'm going. Oh my God, how do I deal with that particular objection?

Speaker 2:

But the point I'm trying to make is we've got the budget planners, we've got the ECIS documents, you've got the cash flow model for investments and pensions, you've got the income stress test and the affordability calculations.

Speaker 2:

It's very obvious to everyone involved that you've got a line of money coming in, bills going out, and it's that money coming in that's facilitating all the things that we're talking about. It's about being very clear with the customer at the very beginning of the conversation. Why are you here today? What is your goal and your objective? Because when you tell me what your goal and your objective is, I can then give you the best advice on how to achieve that goal and the objective. The next thing is, very simply, connecting the dots. We'll be looking at how sustainable your income sources are. We'll be looking at how you facilitate that particular goal, that you've got the different products we're going to need, and then, finally, it's setting the rules of engagement, which is right. Now I know what your goal and objective and I was then putting products in place that I could easily demonstrate and explain how they helped you towards achieving your goal.

Speaker 1:

You'd be more inclined to take that advice right yeah, yeah, of course, because, yeah, we're on the same page, we're both trying to achieve the same thing makes complete sense, it's advice, not sales interesting, Interesting. You say that the next point is and I don't agree with this selling protection. So, as I said, I've experienced being sold to. Surely there's a better way. How do we change the mindset here?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely. I think everyone needs to remember that the role. If you look at the title, so let's assume mortgage and protection advisor. It's not mortgage advisor and protection seller. Mortgage and protection advisor it's not mortgage advisor and protection seller. People completely downplay.

Speaker 2:

It's a mindset issue. Again. They downplay the value of protection advice. There isn't an advisor out there listening that's going to accept a customer objecting to their mortgage advice. I talk about this all the time. But mortgage advisors, if they knew that the client was looking to do something that was going to cause them detriment or was potentially mortgage fraud, they wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. They'd say no, sorry, no, I'm not helping you there. So the mindset piece here is one assuming that you've got a self-protection. No, you don't, it's advised. An income protection in particular is an advised contract. It's regulated right. So again, treat it as such. And then, secondly, getting out of this mindset that the customer's not interested and you've got to sell it to them. You haven't got to sell anything to them. If the customer comes to you and you know that they've got a financial goal that relies on the fact they've got an income source coming in, it's completely logical and completely sensible advice to say we need to ring fence that income.

Speaker 1:

So focusing on outcomes and then reviewing your habits to make sure that these things are done correctly, 100%. The final one is that customers want options. Now I can see where this is coming from. Income protection might be quite complicated to the client, so what's your thoughts on this question here?

Speaker 2:

This is a great one, stevie, and probably a brilliant one to end on, because we can see in the market you know, the IPTF has done a load of research and we can see that there is a significant increase in the number of short term plans being recommended. The only time the customer is aware that a short term plan exists is when the advisor offers it up. Right, because most people don't know these products exist, let alone the fact there's variations of them. So you should exhaust all the different options first before you get down to that. I'm not saying that short-term products are bad. They have their place. They certainly have their place, and obviously some income protection is better than none, wholeheartedly agree. But what I'm saying is that advisors need to stop getting in their own way and creating options. Because here's the thing If you went to the doctor and you said to the doctor, I've got this problem and they offered you three different options, right, you'd feel very nervous, because what you really want from that professional, above all else, is some clear direction.

Speaker 2:

What clients want from you as an advisor is certainty, conviction and instruction. They've come to you because they say well, I've got this goal, I want to buy this house and you're going OK, right. Well, you need a mortgage, you need regular income sources, you need insurances to make sure your family can stay in it if something happens to you. So this is my diagnosis Bang, there's the prescription. Options just create more uncertainty and more doubt. What we want is people who know more than us to tell us explicitly what we need to do this is what I keep trying to tell my therapists.

Speaker 1:

I just want them to tell me the thing to do exactly I mean, it's not that easy when it comes to mental health, exactly no no, but the principles are the same, aren't they?

Speaker 1:

brilliant thanks, matt. I'm just thinking in terms of tailoring this to our wide range of audience. That we've got. I feel like these eight common mindset traps are probably more towards the novice and intermediate level. I'm just going to throw this out at you, matt what about someone who has got all of this down? Maybe there's this one expert tip that you could provide. Maybe it's a mindset shift that they haven't thought about.

Speaker 2:

The biggest mindset thing for people who get their jobs is believing they can't learn more. Even if you're probably the best advisor in your business, even if you're writing more business than your peers, even if you're really good and most clients say yes to you, don't be fooled into thinking you can't get better. It's about constant, continuous professional and personal development. Every day is a learning day. Every day is a school day.

Speaker 1:

Okay, matt, now it's time for our expert interview, and this month we have Anish Patel from Anish Mortgages. Matt, over to you.

Speaker 3:

Hey, anish, great to have you with us. How are you doing? I'm good mate. Thanks for having me on. How are you?

Speaker 2:

I'm very well, thank you. I mean, a lot of advisors will probably know you because you're quite a famous face on Instagram. Are you not Tell everyone about your journey on Instagram?

Speaker 3:

So I started with Ash as you know, you work with him as well just literally just posting, spreading awareness of my business, my brand. And then you say I'm well known. I have no idea, because I work within these four walls every single day, so but yeah, like I've just been posting for years and it's sort of taking my business to another level the social media side of it. So I'm actually relying on it as one of my main anchors in terms of lead generation now.

Speaker 2:

You know I really love the post that you do, um, they're very educational, they really help buyers understand what the journey looks like and obviously more recently you've incorporated a lot more protection into your post. So obviously you and I have worked together. Yeah, and I met you through Ash Correct, and we were talking because you're a very successful mortgage advisor, but when we first spoke you were writing protection business. I'm not going to say you weren't, of course you were, but I don't think you'd fully grasp the relationship that protection has in your mortgage advice process. So, if you don't mind, just kind of give the listeners a little bit of insight in terms of that kind of mindset shift that you've gone through, where protection has now become absolutely integral into your advice process.

Speaker 3:

So when someone comes to me for mortgage advice, I'm like this is the rate, this is why we're going here. This is why we're doing this. This is not the best lender in terms of rate wise, but this is the lender that's going to give you the loan amount that you need. Then, obviously, I was like where are the gaps in my advice process? So we looked at my whole process. We added things in my process from the initial outset just little lines here and there, just setting it up for this is how we're going to do it. So I changed it completely. There was like mandatory calls that I had to have with clients, but the main thing that you gave me was confidence. I knew the certain words to say, certain words not to say. And now I just I go into the call. I have this, something called a recommendation consultation. This is what you need and this is what you're going to get. I'm giving you a mortgage, I'm giving you a debt. This is the product and the vehicle that's getting you there. My job is to make sure that the goal that you've set yourself is not just achievable now, but it's achievable forever.

Speaker 3:

Now I honestly don't feel like I'm selling insurances. I feel like I'm putting clients in a much better position than they were before. Now, if they decide they don't want to sort of take my advice on board, why do you not see value in this? Why do you not want this? What is not important? Have I explained it correctly Now? Ultimately, my conversion rate has gone to another level, but that's because I believe in myself, I'm giving actual, proper advice and I think there's more satisfaction. I feel like now I'm not just giving the debt, I'm giving the right advice as well. I'm in a good place in terms of the way the process is, my terminology, my language and conviction.

Speaker 2:

It's interesting you mentioned conviction, so for me we talked about this earlier in the episode. We're talking about this kind of mindset shift advisors have. It's just adviceful stuff and you've got as much conviction in the protection as you ever would in the mortgage advice, your income is the end, all be all.

Speaker 3:

I was like your employer pays you three months sick pay. After that. What is it like? 1, 1.675 a week? Okay, your mortgage is two grand a month. How are you even going to pay this? Yeah, because ultimately the truth is everyone always thinks life insurance clear the mortgage. But we've introduced family income benefit, fib but income protection is like, honestly, it's like my number one, you know, like if people sometimes decline the lump sum to clear the mortgage, I'm like you need your income. If it incomes up ring fence, we wouldn't be speaking. If incomes up ring fence, you won't be able to remortgage. You won't be able to get that forever home that you want to do. Because this is, for example, maybe your first stepping stone to go into the property ladder. The IP conversion is really high because I just stress so much importance to it from the initial call when I speak to the client.

Speaker 2:

What I love about what you're saying here is that for you, there's just been this almost like incredible mindset shift where you've gone from yeah, well, I'm a mortgage advisor and I offer protection to no, I'm an advisor that recognizes the customer comes to me with a goal and objective in mind and I've got a toolkit From your perspective as an advisor. Since you've had this kind of mindset shift where you're now threading and embedding, as you said, protection, in particular, income protection, into your advice process, has it changed how the conversations feel for you? Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 3:

I don't sell. I provide financial security, yeah, end of, because at the end of the day, my job is not just get you to home, it's to keep you in it forever as well. But one thing I would say is all the stuff that I recommend, I have personally. Some brokers may not like this or not, but I know loads of brokers probably don't have the insurances that they're recommending to their clients. Like I can say hand on heart, I've, yeah, full sweep. So what I'm actually recommending to these clients is exactly what I have. So this is why it helps even more, because I'm like I've got this, this is what I've got for my family. You know, and I can say that wholeheartedly, I don't understand how a broker can recommend something if they don't have it themselves it's funny because vicky church had talked about this and she's saying it's.

Speaker 2:

it's like someone recommending a restaurant to you and you're going oh have no. No, I've just heard it's really good. But I think you're absolutely right and I think for me the most rewarding thing is seeing this change in your mindset. What kind of mindset tip would you give advisors out there who are listening, that are thinking well, I'd love to be as confident as you, anish. I'd love to feel the same way as you about protection. What kind of key mindset tips would you give them?

Speaker 3:

I think you've just got to strip back the process, look at what you're doing, right, and then you've just got to go into those calls, just like you're giving mortgage advice. If someone questions your mortgage advice, you'll be like, well, hang on a minute, no, no, no, I'm telling you this is why we're doing this, because this is X, y. This is why this lender's suitable for you now. But it's about the process, right, I'm not going to bore people with my process, but if they decide they don't want to go ahead with something, yeah, which is very rare it's not because of me.

Speaker 3:

Does that make sense? It's because they really don't want to invest in that financial security. And you can't win every client. But get out the mindset of you're selling because you're giving them a mortgage. Just make sure you're giving them a mortgage and then you are providing them financial security. So imagine it's your own family. How would you advise your own family? And then it just sort of flows because it comes across natural, whereas you don't look like you're selling, you're actually providing solutions to potential problems that could occur in the future.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I love that. What tip would you give to advisors in terms of moving away from that mindset? That price is a problem?

Speaker 3:

Don't assume that they're not going to pay it. When I signed up that £825 premium and now I've actually got £1,500 premium in terms of three different cases, one's £900, £200 and £250, something like that, sitting here, all signed up, just ready to go Never assume. The reality is, if someone buys a bigger property, so we've done a mortgage for £1.6 million, bigger mortgage, bigger liability If you're saying you earned loads of money to get the mortgage, then, for example, you just need to work out roughly as I think is the 40% 5% thing, set expectations from the outside. Look, we always say 40% goes to your mortgage and your bills, 5% will go to the financial security coverage you're going to need. Right, and when you put it in percentage terms I do it a lot People do say, oh, that's quite expensive. I was like, actually, if you look at it this way, it's like 3% of your gross annual salary. So actually 3% to ensure that all of your mortgage, your bills, et cetera, everything gets paid for forever is a small investment in yourself. And I do use certain things.

Speaker 3:

When people have car finances, for example, I'm like well, you're spending £350 there. How does does that make you feel? Why do you have a car finance. Why do you have a car? So nice, you don't have to have it. It makes you feel good.

Speaker 3:

I was like well, the insurance recommendation that I'm recommending to you is going to make sure they can always pay for that car finance. Go on all these holidays that you've won, because in reality people say, oh, I'll cut back. The truth is, no one wants to cut back. Yeah, or I'll move in with parents. Let's be honest, you ain't going to want to move back in with parents because you might have kids, the house might be too small, your parents are elderly, like whatever it is. So, ultimately, people that don't do what you ask them to do, they're probably just deflecting the majority of people. If it's explained correctly and positioned properly, they'll probably just do what you say. Because we've run through the budget plan, I've gone through the recommendation, they understand every aspect of it and they'll just go ahead because they see the mortgage and the insurance all tied in together I love that.

Speaker 2:

So, from a mindset perspective, you're wrapping it up in one advice process. You're doing it using logic, not emotion. You're helping the customer see the value. You explain as you go. I think that all comes down to this kind of like managing expectations, as we talked about the beginning. That's so crucial to get the customer to see it, because the customer doesn't know any different. As I said, they're just on the journey. So you almost build the advice process for the customer and that's what's led to your success is because you've been very upfront and very transparent with your customers. But one thing I will talk about before we finish, if that's okay, anish, is that you mentioned obviously you can't help everyone. You can't help every client, and I get that, and you and I have done a lot of work on this because I know, obviously, when you do get those customers who struggle to see the value in the way you've presented it or are, for whatever reason, dismissive, how do you have the mindset and the resilience to deal with that?

Speaker 3:

You know, I'll give you one example, right for the first bit, in terms of so I had I'm not going to go into, obviously, specifics, but I had a client um, new client, sole earner right, 85, 90 grand a year, two kids, housewife going through the process I was like, look, this is what you need. This is why you need it was I'm all right. I'm all right, I'm all right. Right, I'm recommending 85 pound to this person, right, and I've gone through the whole budget plan. It's definitely affordable. And his reaction was oh, like, you know, if I'm not here, they'll just move back home to whatever country that they're from. Yeah, with the kids. And I was just like I'll be honest with you, I don't think I've actually gone over it. You know like it plays on my mind, but I think one thing you've helped me with is like there are people who will just disregard everything you say, but at least you've tried your best, you've tried to explain everything correctly. Now, that's that one. And, to be honest, those things I let them go Eventually. They do play in my head and that's something I need to work on personally myself.

Speaker 3:

The remortgage one that's something we've been working on recently, like I'm being my barrier in terms of my conviction, because I'm going in the call, going all right, this is what I should say, this is how I should say it, but I'm actually not coming across as I should come across. This week I've started calls with assuming that they're brand new clients. This is the process. This is the advice process. We are going to talk about this, even though last time we didn't, because we've got new consumer duty regulation. We've got to make sure that there's no unforeseeable harm. You've got the financial security you need blah, blah, blah, and we talk about it. But the thing is, every client just goes through the same process, and that is the mindset shift I'm trying to make now for the remortgage clients.

Speaker 2:

I think that's such a great point to end on because I imagine for a lot of advisors listening remortgages product transfers is a big area where they might struggle. Customers gone through the journey once before. Maybe they said no first time around and the advisor lacks the same level of conviction or confidence that they might do with a purchaser right. So I think what you're saying there is absolutely superb and for all the advisors listening, maybe that's the one mindset tip you want to take away from today, which is everybody deserves the right to the same advice and you shouldn't go into the conversation assuming that they're not interested or not willing to talk about it, because I would almost guarantee, particularly if you're dealing with a customer who's refinancing and you're telling their bills have just gone up, they're going to be feeling more vulnerable and actually probably more likely to want to have a conversation around what they could do to be more secure or resilient.

Speaker 2:

But it's an absolutely superb tip and I can't thank you enough for coming on today, anish, because obviously you're someone who I've worked with a lot. I'm super proud of the work that you do. It's been incredible to watch you through this mindset journey where you've gone from doing okay on protection to doing exceptional, and I think for me, the biggest thing here is this mindset shift that you've had and now how it's so important and integral to you to produce the best outcomes you can for your customer and safeguard your own business in the process. So, anish, before we close off, if you could just for the advisors listening, where can they find you online? Where can the advisors follow you and see the kind of amazing work that you're doing?

Speaker 3:

Instagram. So you've got Anish Patel Mortgages, LinkedIn, Facebook. Just Anish Patel, Excellent.

Speaker 2:

Love it. Consistency, brand consistency.

Speaker 3:

Thank you, Fantastic Thanks again, mate Cheers mate.

Speaker 1:

Let's move on to our audience interaction Now. We want you guys to be part of the show and be part of a future episode. You can do that by sending a voice note over on speakpipecom, forward slash, letstalkipodcast, or you can send us an email to info at iptfcouk. So, matt, we've got a few questions in this month. I'm going to start with this one, which is a email from Charlotte Rogers. So she says the only other barrier I place on myself is when a case goes into underwriting. I fear that if further evidence is required, the client will go cold and can sometimes struggle to explain an adverse underwriting decision, such as a loading or exclusion. How do we keep the conversation positive?

Speaker 2:

it all comes down to something very simple, which is expectation management.

Speaker 2:

I think the key here is making sure that you tease those declarations and disclosures out of the customer, because it's very important that people are honest and truthful on their applications to ensure that we produce those good outcomes, and just managing their expectations, explaining, explaining what could happen, and I think I always had this perception that if things go for manual underwriting or if GP reports are required, that's only ever a positive thing, because it means that the policy is going to get underwritten fully at outset, meaning there's no nasty surprises, nothing could potentially go wrong and ironically, the client has a higher likelihood of that plan paying out as and when they need to make a claim.

Speaker 2:

So again, it's positioning and perspective. So for me, this is about keeping that conversation positive and about explaining to the customer the more detail we go into early on means the more detail underwritten it's gone through. I'll be very honest with you. The very first question every advisor should be asking every client once they've got them engaged in the protection conversation is are you currently undergoing any treatment or have you got any new or worsening symptoms you're waiting for the diagnosis of? Because that all comes down from expectation management at the beginning.

Speaker 1:

Great thanks, Matt, and thank you very much, Charlotte for sending in your questions. I've got one more, Matt. This is an anonymous one Imposter syndrome. I think everyone gets this in one form or another. I find that I want my videos and social media posts to be perfect. They never are, so this stops me from doing them. How can I overcome this? And then I'm one of those people that tends to overthink things Me too. Then I get stuck in a loop of analysing decisions instead of taking actions. What can I do to avoid doing this? This is, I think, Matt, falling into this all or nothing, and it's just this block of well, if I can't do it perfectly, I might as well not do it at all.

Speaker 2:

Okay. So I have a good friend that once said to me just making perfect progress. And I think the key is, if I look back at the first social media video I ever did, it was awful, but in my mind it was awful. And this is the problem. You get caught in this trap in your own head, right?

Speaker 2:

I would argue that my social media posts are pretty basic. I would argue that they're pretty unprofessional at times, that I don't think they're particularly. They're not very well edited. I do it all myself. My lighting's not great, you know. I look at even Gary's ones recently. I'm like even I get that. I'm like, oh wow, his posts look really good with the lighting and everything. It looks really good. We all think that way, right, and I think we're all our own harshest critics. The reality of it is you have no idea how much impact you might have on someone else. You impact you might have on someone else. You might put a post out there that you think's absolute junk, but it just might inspire someone to take action. You might put a post out there talking about income protection and it's enough to convince someone that they need to go and protect themselves. You have no idea the impact you might make and as time goes on, you will get more confident, you will get better.

Speaker 1:

I think that's it. I certainly have struggled and still struggle with overthinking and it is something that I'm working on a lot this view of just doing the thing, just stop thinking about the best way to do it, stop planning out the best way to do it and go ahead and just do it.

Speaker 2:

There's basically three questions you should ask yourself whenever you go into that process, right Of you stressing everything it's like right, can I do something about it? And if the answer's no, you should stop worrying about it. And if the answer's yes, you move on to the next question, which is can I do something about it right now? And if the answer's no, you stop worrying about it. And if the answer's yes, you move to the third question. And the third question is am I going to do something about it right now? And the answer is yes, do the thing. And if the answer is no, stop worrying about it. And that sounds very clinical and very binary, but it's actually so true, amazing, matt.

Speaker 1:

So let's wrap all this up now, matt. Let's get your actionable insight across these three different levels. You know we've got novice, intermediate, expert advisors and then, if you can please make, could you wrap us up, give us conclusion, a summary of of what we've learned today?

Speaker 2:

okay. So, starting with maybe those of you who are new to advising or haven't written a lot of ip business before, I think the advice I'd give you is get familiar with your product range. So speak to your BDMs, truly understand the products you've got available and focus on the logical connection between the products and the customer's goals and objectives. So I would start focusing on a simple framework within your process that's going to allow you to bring up income protection in a way that feels very natural, feels very logical and doesn't feel particularly salesy For the medium advisors for those that have probably been doing this are already writing business, want to get better. I would focus on doing those small changes that will have a huge impact to your advice conversation. So, in particular, try not to default to things like short-term plans. Always focus on sustaining that full-term recommendation. Look at how you can add more value. Look at how you can manage customer expectations early on, such as helping the customer to create a reasonable budget in mind when it comes to protection, rather than asking them later on how much they'd like to spend. So proactively manage expectations. For example, introduce a budget percentage of their income at the very beginning of the conversation and set the stage for you to have a very beneficial of their income at the very beginning of the conversation and set the stage for you to have a very beneficial, positive income protection conversation later on. And for those advisors who are very experienced, very good at what they do, maintain that learning mindset. Don't just convince yourself that you know everything. Look at what you can do, those micro changes to advice conversations. They're going to have a huge impact on those customer outcomes. Keep you at the top of the game and you can be a shining beacon to the other advisors, either in your firm or within your network, as to what a good advisor and a good protection conversation looks like. So those would be the top tips and, I think, in summary of everything.

Speaker 2:

So, to summarize what we've talked about today, there's two key things I'm going to focus on here. The first is just that personal mindset. So don't be afraid to ask for help, don't be concerned if you're not okay, because, trust me, everybody goes through these things and I think you should just focus on what you can do to be honest and sincere with yourself about what you're feeling and seek support from those around you, because there is a real danger in our industry, in our community, that we tend to operate as silos, and I think you should know that you're not alone. There's a whole network of people out there to support you. You know me and Stevie included and I think the more you seek support and help, the better it's going to be.

Speaker 2:

And from an advice perspective going back to mindset I can't stress this enough I would argue that mindset is the one thing that you need to tackle above all else. So when I do my coaching initiatives, the very first module I ever do, the very first thing I focus on is mindset, because increases in the number of customers that come into your business, increases in the product you recommend, will mean nothing if you don't have your mindset in the right place. So your head has got to be in the right place when you're going into your meetings. You've got to remove these assumptions, these fears of rejection, these mindset biases, these traps that you've got, because they will truly unlock your capabilities and then you can start to work on those tweaks, those process changes, those product dense portfolios, those types of things, average premiums, because you can only do that once you've got your head in the right place and you've got that learning mindset in place, so that would be the key thing I'd summarise.

Speaker 1:

Matt, that was excellent. Thank you so much. What a pleasure it's been to discuss this topic with you on this month's let's Talk IP podcast. Just some final words from me. Please do send in your voice notes and your emails to get your questions into the podcast. We are really keen to hear your thoughts, your views, even your advice. Just please do send them on, either via speakpipecom forward slash letstalkippodcast, where you can send a voice note, or, if you prefer, you can send us an email at info at iptfcouk, and if you don't want us to read out your name, please let us know.

Speaker 1:

Next month, let's Talk IP, we're going to be focusing on gender and we're going to be looking at the new research that's telling us about the gender gap. Also, pull on some IPTF research finding. We're going to look at the increase in sales to women in the last five years, but it's still 50% more men have bought IP in 2023. We're going to look at why females are less likely to buy and their objections and their attitude to added value features and what more can insurers and advisors do to help close that gap, as well as how to have inclusive advice conversations. But that's it for this month's let's Talk IP podcast. I've been Stevie Arnoldi, the content associate. Here at the IPTF. I've been joined, as always, by Matt Chapman, the protection coach. All that remains for me to say is make sure that you get your unstructured CPT points and if you could rate us and review us on Apple Podcasts, that'd be great. And if you're not subscribed, get subscribed now on your favorite podcast app. That's it from us. Thank you very much. We'll join you next month.