Let's Talk Income Protection

S1:EP5 - Understanding the Psychology of Selling Insurance with Julie Botha from Vitality

• Income Protection Task Force • Season 1 • Episode 5

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In today's episode

Unlock the psychological secrets behind selling income protection with this eye-opening episode featuring Julie Botha, Sales Training & Academy Manager from Vitality. Storytelling isn't just for bedtime; it's a powerful tool that can reshape how we talk about insurance with clients. 

Tap into the shared wisdom of our conversation, where we explore how to turn client discussions into narratives highlighting the value of security and investment in their future. Discover the methods that will help you move past technical jargon and create a compelling vision of protection that resonates with clients' deepest needs and values.

Matt then provides his top tips after his conversation with Julie covering: bringing up protection at the earliest opportunity, selling the problem, not the solution and ask the question "walk me through..."

As mentioned in the podcast, the 7 Families' 10-year anniversary is now out, please watch these powerful stories by using the link below.  

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Produced and edited by SEA Studios

Speaker 1

Hello and welcome to let's Talk IP by the Income Protection Task Force, the podcast that shines a light on the often overlooked but vital insurance income protection. I'm your host, Matthew Chapman, aka the Protection Coach, and welcome to season one, episode five, of let's Talk IP. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Can you believe it? We're already on episode five of this first season. Now, before I get into it, I just want to talk about something very important indeed. I'd just like to thank everyone who's listening in today, because you are part of the solution. We know we need to do more to raise awareness of income protection and to get more people talking about IP. For those of you who are listening and wanting to learn and grow, you are IP superstars and here at the IPTF we love you for it. So thank you again. Give yourselves a huge pat on the back Now. Today's a very special episode. We've got a slightly different format to what you're normally used to and one that we would love you to share far and wide. We've got Julie, Both at Sales Training and Academy Manager from Vitality, who runs training for advisors so they can understand the psychology of selling and why it matters. But, most importantly, we're going to learn how Julie sees sales as a force for good. Do not miss out on this episode. It's going to be game-changing. We're also going to delve into the why, the how and the importance of stories when you're discussing protection and speaking of stories.

Speaker 1

The IPTF7 family's 10-year anniversary video is now out. You may have seen that I shared it previously. It is an incredibly emotional and powerful video to watch. To watch the video click the link in the podcast description to go and watch it and remember you can claim up to 45 minutes of unstructured CPD points for doing it. Please go and check it out. Today. We need to pay tribute to everyone that was involved in that project, because it was game changing for the industry. And after all of that, of course, I've got some top tips and you don't want to miss out on those either, because after I speak to Julie, I'm going to summarize a lot of the things we talked about and condense them into some amazing tips that are going to help you have fantastic IP conversations with your customers. Right, let's get cracking. Let's get into this very special episode. I hope you're sitting comfortably, let's get on it. I hope you're sitting comfortably, let's get on it.

Speaker 2

So I am absolutely delighted today that I've got Julie both in with me. Good morning Julie. How are you Good?

Speaker 1

morning, matthew. I'm fine. How are you? I'm doing really well. Thank you, I'm super excited. As I said a minute ago, it's a very special episode of the let's Talk RP podcast today because we've got you in here today and you do something very special at Vitality that I think the listeners are going to be really excited to hear about. So, first things first, if you could just tell me a little bit about yourself, your history in the industry and what you currently do at Vitality, so I have been in the industry now for 30 years.

Speaker 2

I am from South Africa, so I was with Discovery for basically my whole career and then five years ago I moved over to the UK and joined Vitality and at the moment my role is advisor development, and one of the great things probably the best thing about my job is that I get to go around the country and talk about sales as a force for good To advisors mortgage advisors, protection advisors and wealth advisors really showing them how to have better sales conversations with their clients in order for them to see the value of protection.

Speaker 2

Because I think we really did realize that there were. You know, when I joined the industry many, many years ago, we had great sales training. I mean, when I joined the industry many, many years ago, we had great sales training. I mean, you joined the industry and that was the basics. You got all sorts of great sales skills training as well as interpersonal skills, business skills, and we just found that nowadays a lot of people are graduating or joining the industry and they're getting the technical training and they're highly qualified, but no one's really focusing on the sales skill side of it, and so we've put together a workshop it's two and a half hours and we deliver it myself together with the BCs that we have. We have over a hundred BCs in the country and it's all about helping advisors to be comfortable with having conversations and ultimately getting their clients to make informed decisions about whether or not they actually need protection.

Speaker 1

That is brilliant. I mean, it's such a great initiative because, from my perspective as a coach and I do something very similar to you, obviously in the industry so I'm obviously working with firms and with advisors and it's that whole thing. Like you said, the why of protection is pretty obvious. I think we all understand how important it is to make sure that you're protected financially when things go wrong. You know to make sure that you've always got what you need in the bank to make sure your family's protected if something was to happen to you. I think the why, conceptually, we can all get pretty clear.

Speaker 1

The issue for me, as I found as a coach, is more the how I get it. I get it, I understand how important it is, but how do I have that conversation without it feeling overtly salesy, without it feeling that I'm forcing my agenda onto the client? And what I love about what you're saying is that it's, firstly, it's great that a provider's actually doing this, because you know we often see external people like myself. You know there's myself, there's Gary, there's a few other people out there, you know there's Catherine. Knowles has got her own training course and podcast as well, so there's a lot of great people that are advisors who've done the job themselves trying to do it, but you don't often see providers putting a lot of effort and energy into this it's really good to see that, and obviously then you working with the business consultants to push that agenda out there with advisors.

Speaker 1

So what was it that kind of triggered you into doing that kind of role? Is it something you've always wanted to do or is it something that you've kind of grown into?

Speaker 2

That's an interesting question I have. I've always been. I always liked developing people. You know, when I was a business consultant, that's how I started out in the career, in my career. And I would come home from a meet well, come back to the office not home, but in those days we actually had offices come back to the office and I would say to my manager I had a really, really good day today. And they would say so, how much business did you bring in? I was like no, no, no. Let me tell you about the meeting that I had and we uncovered all of these opportunities within the business and we identified that she needed development here. And so I'm going back next week and we're going to chat about this. And she said but how much business did you bring in? I'm like no, no, but don't worry about that. And so, really quickly in my career, I probably realized that frontline sales wasn't for me, but certainly helping advisors develop.

Speaker 2

And so I often joke with advisors in the workshop where I say you know, I've never sold protection, certainly not sold protection in the UK but what I have done is I've been working with advisors for 30 years who have done it, and many of them have done it extremely well.

Speaker 2

So I kind of see myself like a little bit of a magpie. I stalk you on LinkedIn and I pick up like shiny things, and if I hear something that's like wow, that resonates with me, then I'm sharing it, and I normally give people credit once or twice if I remember who I got the idea from. And then afterwards it's really just about sharing and getting this culture of peer-to-peer learning and let's learn from each other, because what I also find is that everyone in the workshop has different strengths and different skills. They're comfortable with certain styles of presenting and others are like that I couldn't do at all, and so we try and make it that there's something for everybody, like I wouldn't be able to do that, but that you know that approach. I think that would work for me and my style, Because if you, if what we found is that if you just go out there and give one approach and the advisor doesn't resonate with that, well then they just simply won't do it. So it's important to work where the advisor is.

Speaker 1

I think that's so true and that's something that I could completely agree with from the perspective of my coaching is that, you know, if we think about the psychology and I was going to get into this with you in a minute, actually- the psychology of what sits behind that sales conversation and whatever we're thinking in terms of, okay, well, consumer psychology, optimism, bias and all those types of things, there are also inherent biases within the advisor as well, in terms of what they're doing, how they're going about doing it, their confidences, their competence, their weaknesses. And what you're saying is very true, because this kind of like blanket approach doesn't work, and I remember when I first joined the industry, we had some sort of sales coaching and, don't be wrong, a lot of it's very motivational and you get really behind it. You get really motivated by what's being said and infused. But the problem is a lot of it is impractical in that you're asking people to do things that maybe they don't feel comfortable doing, or maybe that's not their preferred way of doing it, and so to offer that variety, as you're talking about it's really really clever, it's really powerful, because I think it speaks to each different type of personality and even to the types of clients that you're dealing with.

Speaker 1

Now, we talked about this because we've had a little catch up prior to this anyway, haven't we?

Speaker 1

And you mentioned a number of different things, which really kind of I was quite fascinated by the different psychology. I love psychology, by the way, because I think to be a very effective advisor, you need to understand some psychology, because you've got to understand what it is that drives and motivates the customer to have the conversation with you in the first place, to consider how important it is to protect themselves where they can see the value over the price, for example, because we know that trumps it when you can do it. So you mentioned a number of things. You said things like persuasion, resistance, optimism, bias and a load of different things. So just walk me through if you don't mind, because you said some amazing things yesterday when we were catching up and I really loved them. So it was like this how of protection and understanding what it is that drives and motivates customers. So briefly, share with you, if you like, your philosophy on how you go about coaching the advisors, if that's okay. Yeah, perfect.

Value of Protection in Insurance Marketing

Speaker 2

So I think I mean we always start off by talking about the protection gap and I ask advisors like why do you think we have this protection gap? Why is it that if we look at the statistics it's really clear that consumers do not see or people in the UK don't see the value of protection? And you know, it all really boils down to seeing the value of protection. And I think that I mean I always love using stories. My family, I mean. They just cringe half the time because people walk past them and go oh, you that guy. So I love, I always use stories about my life. But one of the things is how do we get somebody to see the value? And I use a story.

Speaker 2

I love cooking. I'm not very good at it, but I love cooking. I watch cooking shows, I experiment a lot, and so when it comes to so the other day, we realized that I realized that of 26 years of marriage, I'd never, ever had a proper bread knife like a proper bread knife. I just I always buy sliced bread. If I go to Gail's, I go, could you please slice that for me? And I just have never needed one, right. And then the one day I thought you know this is ridiculous. I'm, you know, at my age. I need a proper bread knife.

Speaker 2

So we were walking through the high street and we came to this really cool kitchen shop and we went inside and around the back they had this room that was just dedicated to knives. So I was like what In heaven? And all the knives were in these glass cases. So they were like Japanese knives and Swiss knives and German knives. And we walked in and my husband said to me why are all the knives behind the cases? And I said, well, I don't know, maybe it's a health and safety thing, you know, because you don't want people just picking up a Japanese knife. He's like no, that makes sense.

Speaker 2

And then he walked up to one of the cases and he looked inside and he looked at the price of the one knife and he said do you know how much this costs? And I went I don't know actually, but let me see. He says there's no way. There is no way we are spending that kind of money on a bread knife. He said we can go to Amazon, I bet you we can get something. Exactly the same for a tenner. He said we can go to Amazon, I bet you, we can get something exactly the same for a tenner.

Speaker 2

And that really made me think, because he didn't see the value in it, right, all he thought was something that needed to do a job. It needed to cut bread, so why would the one with the yellow plastic handle for 10 quid, why would that not be okay? And I'm the one who's saying but I understand and appreciate value. I mean, I use knives all the time in the kitchen and I know that if I buy a really good bread knife, it will probably be passed down three generations, and so I'm prepared to pay more money to get more quality. And he's like, no, we're going to look for the cheapest to get more quality. And he's like, no, we're going to look for the cheapest.

Speaker 2

And I think that if we translate that into what we do as protection advisors, it's all about how do we get that person to not see protection as a commodity, like not see protection as something that just needs to be ticked and we just need to cover our mortgage. The question really is so that story about the knife is great, but how do we apply that concept to protection? So let me start by asking you a question, matt Do you have a mortgage, I do. Okay, good, I'm glad you do, otherwise this whole story would have fallen flat. I'm glad you've got a mortgage. How excited and happy are you to have such a huge debt? I mean, if you wake up in the morning, do you go? Oh, I'm so glad. I have hundreds of thousands worth of debt.

Speaker 1

Far from it. I'm not excited at the idea of the debt, quite frankly.

Speaker 2

And I would probably argue that you probably are quite resentful of it. I certainly am. I'm like I wish I didn't have it. I really wish I didn't have this massive debt in my life, and I think that's the idea is that if you go to a client and you say, okay, we're going to protect your debt, or we always say, like, remove the word mortgage and replace it with the word debt, because debt is a problem and mortgage is something to celebrate and debt is bad, if we're going to say to our clients protect your debt, that is something that they resent.

Speaker 2

They don't value debt. Debt is something that they actually don't want to deal with. So they therefore would look for the cheapest product. They just want to tick the box, they just want that plastic handle bread knife from Amazon, because it's not something that they value. And so we talk a lot about the reframing and let's not say let's take out cover to protect your mortgage. Let's reframe that to let's take out cover to protect your loved ones, to protect your lifestyle, to protect the future of your children. Because if I had to say that to you, matt, I think that you would think very differently about what quality you would want, what type of product you would look for. And it really does, in that instance, open up the door to the conversation around IP, because up until this point it's really just a conversation about some DTA and a little bit of kick if you can afford it, but by reframing it to protecting those that you love, that then gets somebody to see the value of it a bit more.

Speaker 1

Absolutely. I genuinely couldn't agree with you more. I mean, interestingly, I did a post just this last week around the idea of commoditization of insurances and how we've got to stop doing it, because when we commoditize insurance and it becomes a box ticking exercise, all that happens it becomes, like you say, a race to the bottom, and price becomes the key contributing factor, not value, and of course then it's a case of well, I'm going to take the cheapest I can and the least amount of cover I need, because it's being positioned as if it's something that you've just got to do as part of the process, whereas when we truly engage the customer and I often talk about this when I'm doing coaching for advisors, specifically mortgages is that let's think about how someone got the mortgage in the first place, and the way someone gets a mortgage is because a mortgage broker is ultimately leveraging their income to go and get them a debt that they can use to purchase a home that they want to keep. That's it. So you kind of go all right, great, we can protect the debt in isolation.

Speaker 1

Of course we can do that, but the truth of it is we need to protect your means of getting the debt in the first place, being able to borrow, being able to pay the food bills, being able to stop the fridge, being able to I mean, I always use the one feed the kids. Because, as you rightly said, I'm sure, if I said to you, julie, I'm going to make sure that you can feed your kids, that is going to be at the top of your agenda in terms of priorities, right? And suddenly, whatever I offer you that's going to help you make sure you can do that is going to be highly valuable to you because that is a key thing in your world that when you wake up in the morning, you want to make sure you can feed your children. They're your responsibility, they're your loved ones, right?

Persuasion Resistance and Building Authority

Speaker 1

yeah so you're absolutely right. It's that positioning thing. Now you mentioned something to me yesterday about this. Um, I'm going to read it out now. You put persuasion resistance, which I haven't heard the expression before. When you explained it to me I was like that's, that's fascinating and I I totally get that because it's exactly what I train.

Speaker 1

I talk about this idea of stopping selling to start selling. I mean, I appreciate, in the advice community, we often look at sales or the word sales as potentially negative, because it conjures up this idea of almost aggressive sales practices and tactics that are designed to get people to part with money for things that they don't value or don't need or want, whereas I think you and I talked about this yesterday that sales can be a force for good, as you said, and I think it's not about saying that we're selling, because naturally, selling is part of it. You're selling mortgages when you sell a mortgage. You're selling an investment product when you're selling an investment product, but we are advising as well. I get that. I understand that. I haven't got a problem with it.

Speaker 1

But persuasion resistance is an interesting one because there's this idea you talked about where people feel they're being sold to, and in doing so I've said, before the shutters come down, they become very resistant to what you're saying. But you talked about this idea of building authority and credibility, didn't you? So just briefly explain that to me, if you don't mind.

Speaker 2

Okay, so I think you know, just to kind of take a little step back. So the first thing is that how we frame protection whether it's a value or whether it's just a tick box is really important. And sometimes, as advisors, we don't realize how we're framing protection. So if you're going to tag protection on at the end, what you're basically doing, what you've told the client, is that this isn't actually that important. Like, the important thing is the mortgage. Right, we've got that Great. And so we're going to put protection on. At the end it's immediately framed it as this is not that important, so just something like that.

Speaker 2

So first of all, think very carefully about when you talk about protection. We always say make protection part of the process. But that's why. That's why we need to make protection part of the process, so that somebody does not see it being framed as oh, you can take it. Would you like some fries with that as an upsell? But I think I want to first start off. When we talk about the how, like how do you get someone to see the value of protection? For me to ask you the question like what do we sell? I know we said we sell things, so what is it. What do you think we sell?

Speaker 1

I think we sell probably peace of mind, financial security. I think that's what we sell. It's not a product, is it? It's what the product offers people. I don't know. What do you think?

Speaker 2

When I ask this question in the workshops I get loads of different answers and one of them always is peace of mind. We sell peace of mind and I agree we do sell peace of mind. But I would argue that when a client comes to see you, they're actually quite peaceful. They don't know what they don't know, they have optimism bias, so they don't think anything bad is going to happen to them. So actually they're quite at peace. And if somebody already has peace of mind, how are you going to sell them peace of mind? And the way that you're going to sell them that peace of mind is that you need to literally take that peace of mind away in order to give it back to them. So peace of mind is one important element of it.

Speaker 2

But I think often I hear solutions like you need to sell the solution, don't sell the product, and we know that. But before you sell the solution, we have to sell the problem. And when I ask advisors how much time they spend in their interactions with the client talking about the problem or not just talking about the problem but getting the client to think about the problem themselves and I always joke when I say that you've got to get the client to have that faraway look in their eye, where they kind of look away and they go. Hmm, I never really thought about that. If you can get your client to think about a problem that they didn't know that they had, brilliant I mean, then your job is done. But how do we do that, like, how do we ask these questions? Because I can't tell you what your problem is. I don't know how you feel, matt, if someone starts a sentence with Matt. Let me tell you what your problem is.

Speaker 1

Yeah, straight, defensive, defensive.

Speaker 2

If anybody says that to you, it's like what do you know about my problem? Don't tell me what my problem is? So we can't do that. We can't just say to the client did you know that if you don't take protection, this could happen to you and you're going to have a problem here because it's likely to result in persuasion resistance. So what we need to do is we need to ask gently, disturbing questions. So these are questions that get the client thinking, but not sounding salesy, because if we sound salesy and we come in too hard and we create fear, the individual is going to go well, persuasion resistance. I know what you're doing here, and the whole thing about persuasion resistance is that it is when we do not trust the individual's motivation. If we think that you're saying that, you're just saying that to me, you're just asking that question because you want to sell me something. Well, you know you're not going to win that at all, and it's not about winning and it's not about closing. It's really about getting the client to have a discussion so that they can make an informed decision. That's all you're doing. That's all your job is is to help them to make an informed decision.

Speaker 2

So when we talk about persuasion, resistance, I always like to again use a story or analogy. And we've got a BC consultant in our BDM and he basically said that his very first job was to work in a shop. And he arrived there really bright-eyed on the first day and his manager said what you need to do is, when somebody walks into the shop, you walk up to them and you say, can I help you? And he goes oh, that's easy enough. And the first person walked in and he eagerly walked up to him and said can I help you? And the person said no, just looking. And he walked up to the second person can I help you? And the person just said no and walked out the shop. And after about a day or two he thought to himself there's got to be a better way. I mean I can't do this job. If that's my job, asking people and they just keep saying no, no, no. I mean I'm not going to survive in this. I've got to think of a better way.

Speaker 2

So the next day he walked in and the first person who walked into the shop he said to him hi, welcome to the store. I just want to let you know the change rooms are around the corner. Over here we've got our new summer stock, but over there we've still got quite a few bargains on our winter rail. We've just marked them down again by another 10%. So you know, feel free to have a look at that. I'll be at the back. If you have any questions, just come and give me a shout.

Speaker 2

And he said it was remarkable how, not only did nobody say no, go away, there was no persuasion, resistance, but the individual spent more time in the store looking around and making an informed decision. And as advisors we've got to think about that. Like, how do we make sure that what we say doesn't result in no, I'm just looking. How does it result in somebody spending more time in our store or having a conversation with us and so that they can make an informed decision on whether or not they actually need protection? Absolutely, and I think that that really is kind of the key of it. But the question just is okay, that's great for shop assistants and retail, how do we translate that into what we do as protection advisors?

Speaker 1

Absolutely. I mean, for me it's always been one of education. What you talked about there is someone comes into the shop and the shopkeeper or the assistant, what they did was a process of educating the customer. So this is me, I'm over here, changing rooms are over here, you've got this option, this option, this option If you want some bargains, they're over there. If you want to make sure you've got the best dress, that one's over there.

Speaker 1

And so the client felt educated, informed, without this kind of aggressive sales tactic that sits behind it. They felt able to go and make their own informed choices. They felt able to walk around to to look at them and they probably were more inclined to go to the shop assistant. Go well, I've got this one. Is this in the offer? Is this a special deal? Have you got this in a different size? So that's exactly what we're talking about is kind of engaging the client the right way so that you could have that meaningful conversation, go through through that educational piece. Now you talked yesterday and we spoke about this idea of assisted buyer. So what? We threw what you mean by that, because I'm assuming that's the whole purpose of this, which is educating and informing and allowing them to do it.

Building Trust and Educating Clients

Speaker 2

Perfect. So just remember, persuasion resistance results when we don't trust your motives, where we think that you don't have our best interests at heart. So if I get the feeling like you're trying to sell me something or you're trying to get me to do something and, by the way, it's a really important barrier that we have because it helps us not get scammed If we didn't have persuasion resistance, we probably would have died out as a human race millions of years ago. So it's there to protect us. But the question just is, how do we just, as that shop assistant, change the lens of I'm here to tick a KPI, because you know, I just need to say this to you, or I'm here to sell you something too. I'm here to help you, I'm here to educate you.

Speaker 2

So we talk about a concept called the assistant buyer, and an assistant buyer really is quite simply somebody who comes alongside the client or, if you can imagine, some, an advisor standing behind the client and actually looking over their shoulder and and kind of being that sense maker. So I want you know, pointing out all you you need to know about that and for your occupation. Have you considered that? And I would advise you to have a look at that and once the client feels that you are there helping them to make an informed decision, not there to sell you something immediately they are ready to have that conversation with you. The trust is built, your credibility is built and it's clear that their motivation is only to get you to make an informed decision. And so you know.

Speaker 2

Going back to those gently disturbing questions, what are those gently disturbing questions? Because you can't be too like. So how would you feel, matt, if your spouse and family and they had to go to food banks, and what would that say about you? And I mean, that's just going to result in someone going I don't like you and I don't like your approach.

Speaker 2

and I can see what you're trying to do there. So, as I've said, I get a lot from advisors and this one advisor said what she likes to say is ask a question and it's basically starts with the words walk me through what it would look like if something happened and and when you are. When you have an approach like that, it's an open-ended question and the tone is definitely like tell me about what your plan is. Because what I wanted to mention, which we talk about right up front, is this idea of an assistant buyer. An assistant buyer the concept needs to be embedded in the discussion with the client right up front, and you can't just in your mind think, oh, I'm an assistant buyer, I'm not going to be salesy. You actually have to say something. So, just like the salesperson said, they're the change rooms, here's the summer stock, here's the winter discounts you need to say something as an advisor right up front to drop those barriers. So one of the things that we say, you could say something like this like I work for you, I don't work for the providers, I don't work for my firm, I work for you and my only job is to make sure that you make an informed decision.

Speaker 2

And so what I'm going to do is I'm going to ask you some questions. We're going to have a look at the plans that you have. Where I see that your plans are working really well, I will tell you and point that out. And where I see that your plans might need a bit of improvement or could be improved, then I'm going to tell you that as well. If that's okay, at the end of the day it's your choice. So we always say choice is that power word that makes the client feeling control, which is what you want, right. So it's your choice.

Speaker 2

Whether you take protection or not, my only job is to help you to make an informed decision and I think if you can start the conversation with that kind of intro and really make it from the heart so it's not a, you're not reading it off a disclaimer or reading it off a script, but you truly mean it that client is going to answer your questions more openly. They're going to allow themselves to drop their guard and really think about those gently disturbing questions. So when you say like, walk me through what it would look like if you were unable to work for, let's say, six months, just you know, as six to seven months. Let's look at the average. Like what would you do?

Speaker 2

What would you do if you were unable to work for six years? What would that situation look like? Do you perhaps have a family member that could pay all your outgoings for six years? And I think if someone had to ask me that question, that would be gently disturbing because I'd be like, uh no, I mean, I can't imagine going to my brother and say, hi, I was just wondering, could you just add all of our outgoings to your bill for the next six years? And that's what we're trying to do.

Speaker 1

We're trying to get them to think about those these are great tips and, ironically, there's something very similar that I do in my coaching practices. So I talk about this idea of an anti-sale okay as a way of almost getting the client to understand what your motivations are as an advisor. So the minute you enter and you go in as early as you possibly can, as you talked about, and you kind of sit and say, just so we're clear what my role is in this business. So my role is to make you as resilient as possible. Okay, and straight away, resilience is an aspirational phrase. It doesn't sound like I'm selling insurances all of a sudden and then I'm saying to someone look, my job is very simple to make sure that when you walk out of here today or you finish this phone call with me, you are more resilient than when you came into the meeting. So how am I going to do that? Well, I'm going to educate you. First and foremost. I'm going to show you which things are probably don't need. And I've said it all along and all the advisors listening mark my words telling someone what they don't need is as powerful as telling them what they do need, because it demonstrates that your motivations are pure and you're not all about maximizing your sales. Now that's not to say that you can't do the most or you can't even offer them that product, but in terms of helping them to prioritize correctly and effectively through education, what that's going to do is demonstrate that you genuinely care about the outcomes and you genuinely care about what's going to happen to your client. And when you do that, they will be far more invested in what you've got to say, because you've done it the right way, where they are the number one priority, not the sale, and naturally, ironically, you'll probably end up selling an awful lot more and end up getting far more invested clients.

Speaker 1

So I absolutely love what you're saying there. I absolutely love what you're saying there. I absolutely love what you're saying. So you mentioned as well buyers remorse. So this is this idea of clients kind of like taking out a product because I am sure there are advisors out there listening to this that will have had this experience themselves where they've got a client who seems very engaged, very positive, very happy, they agree they're going to take the protection products, they go and submit the applications and within a month or two they get a lapse or a claw back and the client's cancelled and the client ghosts them. There will be lots of advisors out there listening to this who have had exactly that experience, and you mentioned yesterday about buyer's remorse, so walk me through that if you don't mind, and what your strategy is for tackling that did you see what you did there?

Speaker 2

walk me through that teaching. I can even teach you something.

Speaker 1

Matt Chapman.

Speaker 2

Okay. So that's a really good point, because one of the things we talk about a lot when it comes to sales skills is storytelling, and storytelling is incredibly powerful. We know that. But when we look at persuasion, resistance, sometimes storytelling can be seen as salesy. So you know, if you're going to tell a client a story about someone who did have cover and how it saved you know their life and someone who didn't have cover, it could be perceived in some instances as well you're trying to sell me something. I can see what you're trying to do there. So obviously, when we use stories, we use them really authentically and carefully. But one of the things that I started thinking about were these.

Speaker 2

Industry creates really great videos. So at Vitality, we have got member stories that show how a product actually works in action. So you have a client who had serious illness cover and had two claims or whatever it is. It brings it to life, and providers spend a lot of money and production on creating these really, really good videos. Seven Families is a perfect example of these amazing income protection videos, which will help a client see the value of protection, without a doubt, if you can get them to watch it, and I was like. So when do you bring it into the sales cycle? You can't really get a client to watch it before the time. You can't really watch it with the client in the meeting, because that's super awkward. I mean, what do you do with them? So I think a lot of the time they just end up like I don't know how well they use.

Enhancing Client Conversations With Videos

Speaker 2

So we thought ourselves, what about if you use it to confirm the sale? So, in other words, once somebody has said yes, that's when you say you have just made the best decision that you're going to make, I reckon, this whole year, the best decision for you, the best decision for your resilience, the best decision for your family. And what I'm going to do is I'm going to send you a video just so that you really understand why you've made that great decision. And you can either send one of the provider videos If you're recommending a certain provider, you could send one of their videos or, from an income protection perspective, you could send one of the seven family videos. And you could maybe just give it, tee it up and say you know, this is a story about you know whoever, and this is what happened, and I'd really love you to watch that, because what that does is a couple of things.

Speaker 2

First of all, that nasty period between saying yes and getting that plan on the books. If ever the client thought why am I doing all of this? And like it's so much effort and it's taking so long, they're going to have a real visual picture in terms of why they should do that. And I'm not saying that you, as an advisor, aren't going to do a brilliant job at painting the picture, but maybe you don't have time to do a brilliant job at painting the picture.

Speaker 2

And then the other thing is that when they see that debit order go off, they're not going to say to themselves I don't even know what this is for, Like, what is it for? We did this with our mortgage advisor, right? I can't even remember how much cover is it? They're going to very vividly remember because they're going to have watched a true life story and I just think that we should be using them more and we should be promoting them more. And also, if someone has a case study in their head, they're also more likely to talk to their friends about it. And that's what you want, right? You want your clients to be talking to their friends, because those are your perfect clients and that's how you're going to build a really good client bank.

Speaker 1

That is such a brilliant tip because I've always struggled in my head as to how and when you would engage a client with a video like that. I mean it's great for the advice community because it's very motivational, very emotional, very inspirational, fantastic. But a lot of them are either aimed at or designed to overcome some of those biases that consumers have over the value of protection. And you're right, they're great, they're very powerful. But at what point would you say to a client listen, it'd be great if you watch this video because, as you said, it'd be very awkward if you did it together. And it's not likely that they're going to sit there and spend 45 minutes watching a Seven Families video just because you've said wouldn't that be nice to do when they've got Netflix series they want to watch. But I think that's such a powerful idea because no doubt there'll be advisors listening to this who've had that exact situation. One of the things that you said at the end I thought was really powerful is this idea that you then end up with friends and family who almost like act like ambassadors for you, and the reason I think that's very important is because a lot of buyers remorse takes place when a consumer goes away having having received the advice and you're going to that transitional period of either putting it on risk or waiting for something back from them, and then they go and speak to a family member about what they've done, or they go and speak to Dave down the pub about what they've done. That person's got a negative perception around protection, sways them, convinces them they've made the wrong decision, fills them with remorse, whereas this could provide a very beautiful, almost like barbed wire around the cuffs, because we're about why they've done it.

Speaker 1

What I really liked about what you said as well that it goes back to this psychology around around sales and conversations is this idea that you've praised the client for making a smart choice. Yeah, because we all we all want to feel that we do sensible things. We all want to feel that we've made the right choices. Yeah, and so, rather than thinking great, okay, well, here's an expense you've got to account for, reminding someone and praising them for the smart decision they've just made and then giving them some evidentiary support to back that up. For me is an incredibly powerful psychological tool to get someone to recognize the value of what they've done, and there's no harm in what you're saying in terms of doing that annually.

Speaker 1

I talk to advisors about the importance of reminding clients annually of the value of the cover they've got, the value-added benefits they have within their policy, the things that they can take advantage of, and then even sending another video just to remind you why this is so important and the value of what you've took out and the great decision you made last year when we first spoke bang send the video again, I think. Can I be really honest with you? I mean, it's so refreshing to meet someone like yourself and, like you say, you know. The fact that you've got such an in-depth knowledge around the psychology of it and how the conversation should be going and yet not having been an advisor is really refreshing. But I also quite like the idea that it gives you a degree of objectivity. Don't get me wrong. I've done the job, no-transcript. At the end of the day, we're trying to recommend protection solutions to protect more households across the UK, and the truth of it is that can only happen, as you said, when we engage with customers the right way and we talk about it is. That can only happen, as you said, when we engage with customers the right way and we talk about these solutions, particularly income protection, in a way that resonates with them that they feel positive about that. They're not going to get that kind of persuasion resistance because we're pushing the product onto them. I'm not sure if you heard the little dashing in the background barking then the best laid plans and all that. But yeah, my little Stanley dog there in the background barking away on cue, purely trying to promote vitality in the background, probably shouting yeah, there you go.

Speaker 1

Anyway, what I was trying to make was, um, that I did this example with guys about going into a shop and I said imagine for a minute because I absolutely detest, by the way, going into a shop and someone saying, hi, hi, can I help you today anything you want from me? Because I'm just like, just like, listen, do me a favor, I'm browsing, right, let me browse, and then, if I need you, I'll come and see you. And I know that they've been told to do it and I feel sorry for them. But I thought, imagine if you were a sales attendant and you just, rather than going up and saying to someone can I help you, you hang back, you let them in. That change rooms are over there if you want to try it on, and let me know if you need a different size, and you walk past. Yeah, that's it.

Speaker 1

No like, let me tell you about it, let me sell it to you let me push it on you but just something beautiful that provides a positive reinforcement, just like you were saying, whether you made the best decision today, you've done something really positive for yourself. Something like that is all right. Listen, it's brilliant that you and I have in this conversation and I'm going to show you today how you can make your family really resilient, and I'm just going to help guide you towards stuff that's going to make a difference for you and away from stuff that is probably going to be a waste of money that you don't need, which is going to be overly expensive, and people are going to feel so open to that, because you're not often that I meet people who have that kind of similar psychological approach to the conversations, and it's really refreshing because it means that I know I'm not on my own, if you like, and I know there's lots of other people out there that probably share our viewpoint and share our philosophy around. It's all about value, not price. It's all about you know adding value. It's all about value, not price. It's all about you know adding value. It's all about communicating the right way.

Speaker 1

So listen to your tips today and for you to come on the podcast and share them with advisors has been. I don't know if you can hear my dogs barking again. This is just superb Dogs again going crazy. Listen, julie Botha, I cannot thank you enough. It's been an absolute privilege having you on the show today, because you and I clearly think very much alike when it comes to the psychology of having these conversations and how we can use sales as a force for good. Um, it's brilliant to listen to the tips that you use and, obviously, if anyone wants to check you out, I'm assuming they can follow you on socials and they can get into vitality, can they?

Matt's Top Tips of The Week

Speaker 1

absolutely yo, matt give me the top tips of the week. So let's just recap what we learned from Julie Botha and let me talk to you about some of the tips that I want to offer you as to how you can go out there, take what she's taught today and make practical changes to your conversations when you're bringing up IP Right. Number one this is really really important Bring it up at the first available opportunity. Really important Bring it up at the first available opportunity, as Julie was talking about, it's how you set the scene, how you can overcome this idea that you're trying to sell them something or do something untoward, and you can demonstrate what your intentions are and how pure they are. If you bring up the first available opportunity and you don't try and covertly do it later, the clients can be more receptive to what you're going to say because you're emphasizing the importance of it and not in a salesy way. Number two she talked about selling the problem. Now, here's a way that I do it with my clients that has worked incredibly well. She talked about this idea, didn't she? About thinking off into traditions, getting the clients to have that moment where they've got to use their brainpower and they can recognize the need for income protection.

Speaker 1

There's a question that I tend to ask clients. If I'm noticing they're not fully engaged or they don't really understand the problem. I ask the question what's the minimum level of income that you need every single month to maintain a lifestyle that's acceptable to you? So try a question like that or something similar, because what you're going to do when you ask that question is force the client to imagine a life without income and they're going to physically have to compute what level of minimum income they need each month to maintain a lifestyle that they're happy with. Now why is this important? One, it creates the problem In their mind. They have to focus on a life without income and understand what that would look like. Two, they have to calculate a figure that they know is the minimum they need every single month to be acceptable. And then, three, know is the minimum they need every single month to be acceptable. And then, three, once they tell you what that number is, you know you've got them bought in Because at this point they've given you a figure that they can't then deny or run away from. That you can use to make that recommendation and ensure they've got that income they need. And then, finally, the other way to do it and again, it's one of those moments where you can get the client thinking is to ask the question walk me through how sustainable your income is. So I often get advisors to do this at affordability stage.

Speaker 1

Now, going back to what Julie said, this idea of walk me through, as a more passive way to get the client engaged in the conversation and more involved, asking the question walk me through how sustainable your income is is going to drive a positive outcome. Why? Because the client's going to be forced to give you a response. Now, that response might be well, I don't know what do you mean? Or I earn money from my job. No, sorry, let me explain. What I mean is when you can't go to work, does your income continue, and if it does, for how long? Now, at that point, they then have to walk you back through that situation and you're going to identify the clear gaps in their income protection needs. So, that is, even if they get good sick pay, you know that it's not going to be enough to manage them for the rest of their working life or even for the end of the mortgage term. And so you've got this opportunity, like Julie was talking about to bring it to life and create that need for the client.

IPTF News and Outro

Speaker 1

Now, what we learned from Julie was phenomenal and I think you should all take a lot of those learnings away and apply them to what you're doing. And hopefully these tips have given you some practical ways in which you can embed what she's talking about into those conversations you've got with your customers. The key for me one was this idea of avoiding persuasion resistance. So hopefully those techniques I've just shown you will help you overcome that issue of persuasion resistance. Try it today and see how you get on. Guys.

Speaker 1

Wow, Now that was a really, really powerful episode for me. Hopefully you guys have took so much away from it and there'll be at least one or two things that you think, yeah, that's fantastic, I'm going to apply that in my conversations. So that's the key, guys, when you're listening to this podcast, there's going to be a couple of things that you can work with that really resonate with you. And it's not that all of it's going to apply to you. Maybe some bits will, maybe some bits won't, but that's the purpose of this podcast. We just want you to take that one or two things that are going to really work for you and go and apply them in your day-to-day conversations. That's how we increase awareness of IP and that's how we get more people protected.

Speaker 1

As a top tip, why don't you write down those key things that you've learned, your key takeaways, and that's what you can use to claim your unstructured CPD points? And, as mentioned, if you want to do another thing to claim CPD, why not go and watch the seven families 10 year anniversary video? Click the link in this episode's description to do that and again, that will give you 45 minutes of unstructured CPD. And please comment and share that video far and wide. It is incredibly powerful. Thank you again for listening.

Speaker 1

Now, if you did enjoy today's episode, please do shout about it. We need lots of help to create more awareness of the podcast, to send it to your advisor colleagues, share it around the company. Everything you do helps spread that vital knowledge around income protection. And, as always, our social channels are iptaskforceuk on Instagram, at the IPTF, on X IPTF, on X IPTF on LinkedIn, IPTF on YouTube and also at IPTFcouk. Let's Talk. Ip is produced and edited by C Studios. Executive producers are Joe Miller, andrew Wibberley and Vicky Churcher and, as always, I'm Matt Chapman. Empower yourself, empower your and let's talk IP.