Let's Talk Income Protection

S1:EP1 - Fortifying Your Client's Finances with Expert Income Protection Advice

• Income Protection Task Force • Season 1 • Episode 1

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Welcome to the inaugural episode of Let's Talk IP by the Income Protection Task Force, your bi-weekly fix of IP upskilling, to help you become the best adviser you can be.

In today's episode

Imagine securing your financial future with a shield so robust that life's unexpected twists can't dent your stability. That's the promise of income protection, a topic we explore thoroughly in our interview with Keiran Leeder a behavioural specialist turned mortgage and protection adviser. Keiran brings to the table heartwarming client stories and transformative experiences that spotlight the indispensable nature of income protection.

Next, we answer your questions in #AskIPTF and for our very first episode, we have our wonderful 7 Advisers on the line to ask some burning questions along with special guest Gary Waters chiming in from Bali of all places, who discusses the integration of income protection in the home-buying process, emphasizing its role in not just acquiring, but maintaining the home of your dreams. 

Then finally, as we will on every episode of the podcast, Matt provides his insight in "Matt's Top Tips of the Week" - where he underscores the value of leaning on Business Development Managers for their expertise, stepping out of their comfort zones, and adopting a mindset that places informed advising at the heart of client interactions. 

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Produced and edited by SEA Studios

Matt Chapman:

Hello and welcome to the inaugural episode of let's Talk IP by the Income Protection Task Force, the podcast that shines a light on the often overlooked but vital insurance income protection. Twice monthly, every second and fourth Tuesday of the month, I'll be joined by industry experts as we shine a spotlight on income protection. We're going to share powerful stories, simple techniques for refining your advice process, powerful tips, and will be answering your burning questions so that you can support your clients in providing them with the best protection possible. So, whether you're a seasoned financial advisor or someone who's just eager to enhance their financial literacy, we really are aiming for let's Talk IP to be the go-to resource for understanding the importance of income protection in securing a stable financial future for your clients. So, without further ado, I'm your host, matthew Chapman, aka the Protection Coach, and welcome to season one, episode one of let's Talk IP. So welcome to the podcast and thank you for joining us for the very first episode. You're joining a very exclusive club of founding listeners and hopefully one day you'll be very smug in the future when you can say I was there from day one. So thank you very much for listening.

Matt Chapman:

So what's coming up on today's show? We have an interview with Kieran Lieder, a mortgage and protection advisor from Reach4Mortgage Solutions who, as you're here, is an IP convert and who shares how that change of mindset really opened up the doors to his IP advice, even resulting in getting IP support to a client who only months later, desperately needed it. Next, we'll answer some of your burning questions and discuss your insights and stories in hashtag AskIPTF. But for this week we actually have some special guests in the form of some excellent voice notes from our very own IPTF7 advisors. More on how you can get your questions answered on the show later, and last but not least, as I'll do in every podcast, I'll be providing you with some of my top tips to help you become the best advisor. You can be in Matt's top tips of the week, so stay tuner to the end for that Right.

Matt Chapman:

Let's get straight into the interview, shall we? And we're honored this week to be joined by Kieran Lieder. He's an IP convert who now believes that IP is more important than critical onus cover. Can't argue with that. Kieran spent almost 20 years working with adults with learning disabilities who exhibited extremely challenging behaviors. So, starting out as a support worker, he progressed to ultimately being a behavioral specialist within the field, working nationally. In 2015, he left that role to become a full-time foster carer to the sibling of a little boy, and when he moved out later in 2020, he made the decision to retrain and do something completely different and he became a self-employed mortgage and protection advisor. But why don't I let him tell you more about that? So welcome Kieran. How are you?

Kieran Leeder:

I'm very well. Thank you, Matt. Thanks for the opportunity to come on and have this chat. Please share it.

Matt Chapman:

Not at all, mate. Not at all. It's really good to have you on and obviously I've known you for a little while, so we've obviously been chatting online a little bit, haven't we? So I've been doing my posts, you've been liking and making comments on some of the posts and, yeah, you've been very supportive of some of the posts I've put out there, which I've usually been talking around things like prioritizing income protection, and obviously I'm a huge advocate for it. So when I sort of put out the invitation for guests to come on the podcast, you were the one of the first people to reach out to me. So it'd be really lovely, if you wouldn't mind, if you just tell people a bit of back stories to your history in the industry, how long you've been an advisor and kind of what you did prior to that. It'd be really interesting for people to hear, because I've seen your story. So tell us?

Kieran Leeder:

Yeah, cool, no problem, matt. I've just shared 20 years supporting adults with learning disabilities and challenging behaviour in lots of different roles, but ultimately I ended up as a behaviour specialist working down the country and then in 2015, I left that to become a full-time foster carer for a sibling of a foster child we already had. So it kind of just came about quite organically and I did that and then in 2020, that child moved on and, as I only ever kind of did it to take him on board, I kind of re-evaluated what I wanted to do. I didn't want to go back and do what I'd done before.

Kieran Leeder:

So I did my CMAP and became a mortgage advisor self-employed mortgage advisor under Reach for Mortgage Solutions. You know, I'd always had a bit of an interesting property and done a couple of developments as well. So the mortgage side was I was familiar with, but I don't think I was quite prepared for how some of the skills that were used in my previous roles would apply to the role today. But yeah, so I've been kind of doing this three years now and, yeah, I think that kind of brings us to where we are.

Matt Chapman:

It's fascinating because obviously I always love when I meet people in the industry and learning like kind of where they've come from and the different roles they've had, but also, more importantly, how skills they've learned in other jobs can help them in the advising process. So I'm really the behavioral side of things and understanding the psychology that sits behind people's decision-making processes or whether that's certain sort of wider life skills they've gained from when they were doing a different or previous job. That then applies really universally across what they do with mortgages etc. But I remember reading something that you put in the form you sent through to me, which is fascinating. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you first started out you sort of felt a bit not negative about protection, but you were almost actively telling clients not to take protection. Is that right? Am I misreading that one?

Kieran Leeder:

No, not that. So when I came into the mortgage and production world, I had no belief that. I just thought protection was like just a money-making scheme. I had no protection for myself and my family. A previous advisor tried to sell it to me and I ditched it. I had no interest in doing it and I think as a result of that my mindset around it, my approach to it I almost talked to my early clients out of taking protection because I just gave them an out, because that's what I believed. I didn't come into mortgages to sell. I came into mortgages to help people get mortgages for the property and I felt like the protection side of things was a bit salesy and a bit of a scam, if I'm being honest, completely at the other end of that. Now it's mad that they're turning around and I think I often say I'm like a portrait turned gamekeeper in that respect.

Matt Chapman:

Do you know what's funny, though? I think what you're describing is probably something that a lot of advisors experience when they come into the industry, because there is this misconception that protection is a sales process, as in you're selling a product, an insurance that nobody wants, that nobody needs, that. It's a bit uncomfortable Whereas people come to you for a mortgage. They want a mortgage. Well, what I always respond by saying to advisors they don't want a mortgage. Nobody wants to take on debt. What it is, the mortgage is the solution to achieve what they want, which is to buy the home of their dreams. Typically, that's why people get the mortgage. Not that they want the mortgage, they want the house. The mortgage is the vehicle to get the house, so is the income that you use to get the mortgage.

Matt Chapman:

Naturally, there's a discussion around protection. I guess what's really interesting for me is I saw who's then come into the industry. You've had this preconceived negative bias around protection, which I believe is quite common amongst advisors, whether they've come from a consumer background into advising and had a bad experience with a different advisor, or whether it's potentially an advisor that's just learned to offer their advisors and has this negative mindset. What is it that changed for you, kiran? Where was the light bulb moment? Where you went? You know what I need to think differently about this.

Kieran Leeder:

Prior to being an advisor, I had a mortgage advisor. I just always felt like he just went you need this protection and this is how much it is. When I just went, no, and he went all right then. So I kind of carried that into the industry. And also when I first the advisors that I met early doors, whenever they talked about no-transcript, they just talked about it as being this is where the money is, which didn't sing to my particular values or my beliefs, and so I still stayed away from it.

Kieran Leeder:

And then a particular BDM from a certain provider reached out to me, said let's meet up, let's talk, met up and talked and it like talking, she really liked speaking a different language to like ever heard before. She literally sat down and said just allow me to educate you and we'll take it from there. And she started through a process of educating me rather than selling to me and I thought, jesus, you've turned me around in an hour. If I carry this mentality to my clients and I carry this forward, then maybe some of the people that I've kind of discouraged and dissuaded might have been more open to the idea that I approached it differently. And so I kind of said, well, I'm going to try some of this with my clients and I saw a completely different response from them. So all the things that you expect, so the pushback, the objections, I just wasn't seeing what I previously presented to you know, to a provider, actually.

Kieran Leeder:

So I kind of just set out to really upskill myself in the entire process the product knowledge, identifying the needs for clients, having better conversations and I just instantly saw a huge turnaround in the conversions, realized that the thing that had prevented people taking protection from me in the past was me, not the products, not them and just decided that you know, I won't be like that anymore. I wanted to change, I presented it and positioned it, and then I started following people like yourself picking up your tips.

Kieran Leeder:

Honestly yeah it's mad in it. But you know, I think income protection, you know, is a funny one for me, specifically because initially, you know, I would say like, oh, income protection, it's quite expensive. But we have this limited budget, one that you could have, and again I realized, like I'm not, I'm telling people to take the worst option, which is to open them out of it right.

Kieran Leeder:

Yeah, it's up to them to tell me that it's too expensive or that they don't want it or they don't need it, and for me to kind of help them understand that actually that's probably not a great decision, rather than open the door for them to make a bad decision.

Matt Chapman:

And because they're looking to me for advice at this, I love that they're looking to you for advice, which is, yeah, that's the number one thing, I think, for me that the thing that really struck me there was this idea that someone from a provider, a BDM, came and did this kind of educational process for you.

Matt Chapman:

So I think you know, to anyone that's watching this, I think that's a really valuable place to start. You know, if you maybe don't have the same level of belief as Kieran in your protection conversations, that you know speaking to your BDMs your provider BDMs is a great starting point in terms of getting someone who understands those products, understands how to have those conversations, understands the importance of them, to kind of give you a bit of insight. But the thing that really struck me there was you use the word education and I think education is probably the pivotal thing there, because I believe when most people are exposed to these types of solutions, particularly income protection, and you can relate it back to the client's goals and you educate them as to why it's such a pivotal, essential tool to keep them financially resilient, I think most people are fairly receptive, wouldn't you say?

Kieran Leeder:

It's all about the position that people take the advice on. I've read on someone's protection recently that it needed doing because of the longer time the situation changed and they've never had that income protection. But they have quite a significant amount of critical illness, like £150,000, which is great.

Kieran Leeder:

But your income for the rest of your life is like £2.6m, which is a figure that you'd be more comfortable to receive if you ever needed it, and it came about like no bread and off the back of that. Now I don't need as much critical illness cover, do I? No, because your income is guaranteed now. So you do need some in case there's a life change, things, adaptations, or there's costs associated to the illness. But if you can work you'll earn money. If you can't work, you'll get paid Absolutely. So you only need an amount to help you manage that illness. You don't know what it's going to be. You know like £150,000 might not be enough Absolutely.

Kieran Leeder:

It's all about the education and, I think again, mindset. That's why I'm really happy to come on some allies, because there'll be advisers out there, like I was, who believe that people don't want protection and therefore they don't want to experience the rejection and the negative and the objections and have those difficult conversations. But the fact of the matter is that once you believe in it the not difficult conversations, the conversations that you have to have, and if you're not having them, then you're not really giving your customers the chance to make an informed decision, and I kind of always take that position like, ultimately, the choice is yours, but now the decision is an informed one, not an ignorant one. Really, and yeah, I think that's the crux of it for me, when I go away, then knowing that we've done the best for the client.

Matt Chapman:

You've done a proper job. Absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more. I think that the key is this education of it you're talking about and then allowing the clients to make the more informed decisions. And I think the things that really striking me from what you're saying are kind of all the things that I talk about when I do my post, which is that level of self-belief, that passion about what you're doing and why you're doing it. Once that starts to come across, the conversations don't feel negative, you don't get objections, you don't get pushback, because who's not going to want to make themselves feel more financially secure, who's not going to want to invest in their own financial resilience? And, I think, positioned correctly, as you've rightly said, these conversations completely take on a different dynamic. The narrative changes completely. Clients' receptiveness increases, adviser gain confidence and they end up, like you, where you become inherently passionate about what you do and you realize you're doing a good thing for people.

Matt Chapman:

One of the questions that we always ask guests when they come on the show is about how they think we can grow the IP market. Now we've seen some encouraging signs over the last couple of years, particularly post-COVID, and I think maybe Furlow had a little role to play in that, given that people realized when it's like to live without an income, and we were very fortunate to have a scheme put in place by the government that gave us this kind of replacement income when we were unable to go to work, and so naturally that opened up a lot of doors for advisors to have these conversations and also for customers potentially see the benefit of that type of contract, sorry, so income protection has definitely taken a bit of a front seat in the current protection sphere. But the question we've got views, then what do you think would be the easiest way, in your mind, to grow the IP market?

Kieran Leeder:

To educate advisors that speak to clients and to get them to understand how much more valuable it is than some of the other protection policies that we provide and to kind of move away from the big lump sum I had to say I almost call my headline grabbing numbers and move to more to the pragmatism of, well, if they've got an income then they won't be impacted by whatever happens.

Kieran Leeder:

I think it's just getting people to change their mindset in it and getting advisors to position it better, because I think the people from a mortgage background particularly seem to focus on life and kick and kind of almost income protection being the nice to have, whereas I almost think of it as the essential to have, because the entire mortgage process is based on that. Those numbers, those income. You know you can't have a mortgage without those income. Therefore you don't have lump sums coming in. We're not basing it on you getting a lump sum in future, we're basing it on this. So I think just more education, more conversations probably the only way you can do it in there. I don't say how else you can. I think the BDM's being more front and center and pushing it as well.

Matt Chapman:

Well, it's clearly had an impact for you, hasn't it? Having the BDM have that conversation with you's clearly driven you in a direction that's now made you act like this.

Kieran Leeder:

I suppose yeah and it made me reach out to other BDMs and say well, tell me about your product. You know why will your product suit my clients better than theirs and love that. And when you engage in those conversations with people in the industry, you can just naturally pick up knowledge and understanding and product knowledge. I think product knowledge is massive for me. Again, when I first started going like that I'm gonna be better at advising on protection, well, my product knowledge wasn't good enough, it wasn't sharp enough, I'd not discussed it enough, so it wasn't fluent. And then, but the more you discuss it, the more you research it, you know, you kind of just naturally builds over time and you get to a point where you understand what the offerings are and so you know, I think again, a lot of more advisable, shy away from it because maybe a little bit scared of it.

Kieran Leeder:

But I think, like anything like me coming on this podcast for the first time, you know you out your comfort zone, that's where you grow, that's where you learn. But the only way to grow and learn is to get out there, out your comfort zone, and challenge yourself. And that's kind of what I did, because a bit all comes back to this fundamental change in beliefs that this is the best thing for the people who are coming to me for advice. And when you and I think if you've got that at the core of what you do, then you're just doing the right thing, aren't you? So it becomes easier.

Matt Chapman:

Absolutely. I mean, I say a lot that actually protection advisors should be a lot more proud of what they do, because it's very rare that you'll produce a bad outcome. Making a protection recommendation, if anything, you're building more resilient households, more resilient communities. You're giving people exactly what they need when things go wrong are probably some of the worst times in their lives. So I think it's an incredibly noble thing to do and, like you say, when you joined the industry, your perception was that this was all about selling insurances and it felt a bit uncomfortable, whereas I very much took the opinion that selling protection if that's what you want to call it is actually an incredibly noble thing to do Because, as you rightly pointed out, if we're not having these conversations, who is going to have these conversations?

Matt Chapman:

So, in a research indicates, doesn't it, that the vast majority of people, the one and only time they get exposed to these types of products is when they're going through a mortgage advice process. So what I loved about what you put in this form that you sent through to me was you used the expression IP is the foundation. Just expand on that a little bit. What do you mean by IP is the foundation?

Kieran Leeder:

for those that are listening, Well, I think I put the foundation of financial planning into a, so like your income pays for everything. For a start, it pays into your pension If you've got enough. It pays into investments. So when you talk to people and they're paying into these things for their future, but they're not protecting the thing that pays for the future, it's like every plan you've made for the last 15, 20 years could be wiped out in an heartbeat financially and you've got nothing to stop it happening. So guarantee the income your financial plans can stay on track. You know you can confidently plan, knowing those plans can't be disruptive. If you don't have income protection, if you've got a family income benefit, then yours or your family's financial future can't be planned. You're always an incident, an accident, an accident.

Matt Chapman:

On a knife edge.

Kieran Leeder:

Yeah, away from that all being taken away, and it's relatively small sums of money, I think you know. You see, people waste a lot more money on things that are a lot less important, without buying an eyelid.

Matt Chapman:

That the income pays for as well. By the way, that's the stupid thing.

Kieran Leeder:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah.

Matt Chapman:

Josh, even funny. It's like when you look at pension contributions you mentioned pension contribution investments Typically what someone will put into a pension contribution each month is significantly more than what it would cost them to ring fence their income for the rest of their life. And you just I find that I find it funny that people have this kind of like future based willingness to invest in something that's obviously gonna provide them with an income when they retire, without safeguarding the very income they've got today. But I think I'm going back to your point here, and I think this is kind of the nail on the head.

Matt Chapman:

Is what you're saying Is that actually, it's not that the client isn't willing to do it, it's not that the client isn't prepared to do it, it's not that the client doesn't see the value in doing that, it's just that the advice community, for whatever reason, is not having those right conversations. For whatever reason, they're deprioritizing income protection, they're not bringing it up at the right time, they're not discussing it correctly, they're treating it as a sales product rather than something that's integral or, as you quite rightly said, the foundation of good financial planning. So do we think that it's more that the advisors need to kind of up their game a little bit and do a bit like you kind of go to this Phoenix rebirth thing and kind of think do you know, actually I need to go and do this a lot better than what I'm doing Currently is that?

Kieran Leeder:

what we're thinking Based on my experience. While I say this, when I thought a certain way and I acted a certain way, very few of my clients took up protection. When I changed the way I thought and the way I acted, my protection conversions and sales if you want to use that term went astronomical. It's chalk and cheese and I know that I sleep sound there. And I guess what's consolidated in more for me is a personal friend of mine who I educated around protection and got them to take out protection and cancel their pet insurance and use that money to take out personal insurance.

Kieran Leeder:

Six weeks after we arranged it she started going to the doctors with symptoms and nine months later she's got a benign brain tumor. Oh, my goodness, and I had not been prepared to have those conversations and help her to see the value. You know I'd be sat here now a year down the line going I should have tried harder, I should have done more, and I know that I did. When you have a claim, I guess it really drives the value, you know, because very powerful, yeah, yeah, and that you know it's really important, isn't it? That's.

Matt Chapman:

It's what we do, mate, it's what we do.

Kieran Leeder:

People are so happy to contribute to our future pension, which they may or may not get to claim, depending on what happens to them between now and then. But I've seen people with an IP policy that finishes when they're 60. And when I asked why I'm going to retire at 60. Only if you can work until you're 60. What if for the next 15 years you don't work, there won't be a pension at 60 and then you won't have an income. So your policy, you take it out on a degree of certainty that doesn't exist. But that's a little bit crazy. That's a gap, that's a need that's not met. So recognise the value of it. I find it's an easy conversation to have and it's not everyone listens. I'm not saying like every time I make a recommendation it gets taken up, it doesn't. It's not the case. Not everybody does take it on board, but I know that I've done everything I can.

Matt Chapman:

Which I think is probably as much as anyone can do right in terms of you know you can take the horse to water, you can't make it drink. And often say this to advisors I'm coaching. I think the key is to remember, as long as you feel you've done the very best you can in terms of creating that value, explaining the importance of income and giving your client the option to be able to, as you beautifully put, make that informed decision. I think that is the role of the advisor to make sure that you act like that last line of defence, as you did for your friend. And I think most advisors really underestimate the importance of the role that they have and the importance of the difference they can make to families and to households when they do a decent job.

Matt Chapman:

And I think what I'd really love to do, if this is at all possible, kiran, is obviously we're getting close to the end of the podcast interview. It'd be really wonderful, if you wouldn't mind, if you could share, I suppose, probably the best bit of advice you could give. What's the top tip? Having gone to the process and become a convert, if you like, as an income protection convert, what's the best bit of advice you could give to advisors out there who are probably listening to this thinking. I love Kiran's story. I love what he's saying. I love the idea that he's now become this kind of advocate for income protection. What advice would you give someone who's probably sitting in a similar position to where you were a few years back, when you didn't have the same level of passion and enthusiasm, recognise that your beliefs are your beliefs and not your client's beliefs is massive.

Kieran Leeder:

Get rid of the attitude that it is a sales process. You're not. You're solving a problem for your clients. It's not a tangible problem, but you are solving a problem. You are creating foundation so that the future can be built upon.

Kieran Leeder:

Whatever it is about it stopping you doing it, whether it's a lack of knowledge, a lack of mindset, a lack of experience, a lack of confidence, start following people like yourself and start listening to the tips and the advice that you're giving, because it's massive for me. I wouldn't have really resonated with me right from the start. It was a budget. I would train ask the client what the budget is, and I think it would be you that said how can you ask somebody to put a price on something that they have no idea what the price is? And you're instantly trying to provide a solution for this made up, arbitrary number. And so then, when your solution is more expensive than what they've told you the budget is, then they feel like they're being juked.

Kieran Leeder:

And the minute I stopped doing that again you know, I saw the amount of protection that people took out was increased because we talked about the need and I provided the solution. That's my top tip Get to understand the needs of the clients and then go away and present the solution and the price is what the price is really. It's up to them to tell you it's too much. If it is too much, then again you'd be surprised. I'd be surprised Lots of times now where, when I start, I think this is gonna be too much, but that's up to them and it's not. And there's other time where I think they'll absolutely gobble this up and they go oh, that's what I wanted to pay. So the client can always surprise you, but make it their choice to do that rather than you deciding your own fight.

Matt Chapman:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Now, it's brilliant, mate. I can't argue with anything you've said there. I think those are really, really good tips and I'm sure that lots of advisors out there listening to this are gonna take a lot from that. It just leads me to say thank you so much, kieran, for coming on today. I really appreciate you having you on as a guest. It's been insightful, it's been really interesting for me. It's wonderful to meet someone who's as passionate as an articulate around the need for protection as you are, and it's great to see that you've gone through that process. So I really appreciate you coming on and sharing your story with everybody. Thank you so much for coming in, kieran.

Kieran Leeder:

Thank you, thank you, Matt, for having me on. It's been great you enjoyed it ["Podcast Guest"].

Matt Chapman:

Right, that was Kieran Leder from Reach for More Solutions. So thanks again, kieran, for being our very first podcast guest. Now it's time for hashtag askiptf, where each week, you get the chance to be part of the show. We want this podcast to be a two-way conversation, so if you'd like to get involved, please do send in your questions, your thoughts and your stories. We would love to hear it all. All you need to do is use the hashtag hashtag askiptf on LinkedIn and maybe you'll be featured on a future episode of let's Talk IP. But for now, we've got none other than our IPTF7 advisors on the line to ask some of their burning questions. So let's get into it. ["podcast Guest"].

Matt Chapman:

If I already had a £100,000 quit limits policy, why should I take out an income protection policy? So great question there from Anthony Andrea Lee from Life Search. Really appreciate you saying that in my friend. It's kind of one that I think is fairly typical in the advice community. So I think a lot of clients have this desire to focus on lumps and benefits.

Matt Chapman:

Now, there are certain limitations with criticalness, as we know. So, typically speaking, they cover a range of more serious or more critical conditions which actually make it a little bit harder to claim on, because typically you'd have to be quite poorly in order to claim on that. But in reality, that £100,000, I mean, how long is that actually going to last someone? When we think about what Kiran said earlier in the conversation? He was talking about how much does someone earn over a lifetime, and he was even saying that goes into the millions, and so, an actual fact, £100,000 isn't going to last anyone very long. I mean, the typical question I would ask if someone posed that to me, would be would you be prepared to retire tomorrow on £100,000?

Matt Chapman:

If the answer is no, that £100,000 of criticalness is likely to be far less sufficient than your needs. So the actual answer to that question is going to be income protection is a far more comprehensive solution. It covers anything that stops you working due to illness or injury, so it's a far broader range of conditions being covered and, more importantly, it provides the one thing that everybody needs, which is that regular income in order to meet their bills. Because the truth of it is, even if you stop, the bills don't, and £100,000 is highly unlikely to be able to cover you for as long as you might need it for. So the focus is on all about income and making sure you've always got that cash flow Enough in the bank every single month to be able to all the bills that you've got coming out. Hope that helps. So let's look at who's next then.

Tracey Boyd:

Hi, matt Tracy here from Mortgage Hub Expert as a mortgage advisor. Historically I've written IP when I write the mortgage, but I want to start putting these policies in force earlier. During my first appointment I discuss it, but lots of clients tell me they don't want to start this until they have a mortgage. Whilst I've explained the implications of this, they still decline it, and the advice to overcome this one would be really appreciated.

Matt Chapman:

Thanks, oh, I think we might even have a special guest on the line to help answer that one. Is that a Welshman I see in the distance, all the way from Bali.

Gary Walters:

What on earth give you that idea? How did you guess I was from Wales? Yeah, hello everyone, it's Gary Waters. I'm a protection coach, the same as Matt, and currently I'm coming to you live from the middle of a forest in Bali.

Gary Walters:

That's a really good question, tracy, and it's one that more advisors should ask, actually, because, let's be honest, we're used to providing mortgage advice and if we're good at our jobs, then providing simultaneous or later protection advice. But it's very seldom someone meets us and says I want to buy that house, let's go for it. Normally there's tentative inquiries it might have six months to go on an existing mortgage. So there's lots of reasons we meet the customer where they actually need protection advice, but we're not tying it to the mortgage, this being one of the examples income protection for someone who, let's say, still shopping around, right. So just telling them they need it and mentioning the benefits of income protection is seldom going to do anything, because nobody ever comes to us because they're concerned about protection. They want to buy a house. So the hook we use is buying the house, ie the mortgage, and then we link the protection advice around that. But of course they're not buying a house and they're just shopping around. We haven't got that hook. So what you've got to do, as I always say, bring the need to life. If you start lecturing people about, well, if you were sick from now on, then maybe you might struggle. It's just a very transactional conversation. So why are they there? Let's use an example of a first time buyer finding out how much they can borrow to buy their first house, so they can start looking for their first house together. It is about the most exciting time in a young person's life until they actually move into the house. So what's the hook? Well, they want the house. They've already gone to IKEA and almost planned all the things they're going to have in this house that they'll have in the future. So that's the warm, soft feeling they've got.

Gary Walters:

So you're not quoting insurance. You're protecting their ability to buy their dream home. So when you're giving advice, you base it around that. So, firstly, every advisor should do when you meet the customer, even if they say we're not ready to buy a house, we just don't tentatively inquire how much we can borrow. You still tell them your advice comes in two separate but equally important halves the mortgage and the protection.

Gary Walters:

Now, in this instance, because we know they're not going to apply for a mortgage straight away. You tell them that your protection advice actually also comes in two parts. Part one is my advice to make sure that you can continue to afford to buy your dream home, and when you do buy it, I'll do the second half, which is making sure you can continue to afford to live in your dream home, Right? So what do they need to buy their home? Why are they there and why are they able to get a mortgage? It's credit score and income. So that's why they're there and that's why they can start looking through, looking online and looking at right movements, seeing where they can buy.

Tracey Boyd:

Right.

Gary Walters:

So you better advice on that income protection. If they're all sick between now on finding a house and they drop down income, the two things they're going to suffer are the income and possibly their credit score the only two things that is getting in that house. So you provide income protection advice to protect these two essential pillars that let them buy the house. By not having income protection or protecting their income, you've got to let them know that they're losing the potential to buy that first home together. That is about as powerful a motivation as you could ever have and that is how I would recommend advising income protection to anybody who isn't quite ready to buy a house.

Matt Chapman:

That's brilliant. Thanks so much, gary. Is there anyone else there on the line? Hi, I'm Matt Nathaniel from Business Protected here.

Matt Chapman:

Quick question about how you talk to advisors about the difference between executive income protection and group income protection for limited company directors. Oh, that's a fantastic question. So there are some fundamental differences in these types of contracts. So obviously, group income protection is essentially a it's like a general insurance contract in that renews every single year, so there's a couple of limitations associated with it. So typically you'll find it has to be renewed each year. So if the policy holders experience a claim, it could be harder to renew that cover later on. You tend to have to shop around for it, but there are some advantages to doing it. So, if you can imagine, it's one of those policies that includes free cover limits. So you've got company directors who maybe have some existing conditions that would make it very hard for them to get underwritten using term assurance contracts or income protection in a traditional sense, or even executive, then it could prove a very useful option to arrange cover for them. Naturally, the claim statistics are a little bit different with group, mainly because they focus on sort of early intervention as opposed to processing claims in the same way that you might find with an executive contract.

Matt Chapman:

But, like I say, group schemes are really really good, particularly when you've got multiple employees. The problem is is where you've got firms that don't qualify for group schemes. Maybe they've got only one or even potentially two directors that wouldn't qualify for a scheme. Then they can look at products like executive income protection. Now, the thing to note about both of these products is they typically pay the benefit gross, which means the money would go into the business and then the business would continue to pay the employee or the director using PAYE, so they would then have taxation and income tax and potentially, national insurance contributions deducted from it. So it's important to understand the difference. Now, group schemes typically allow up to 75% of the total salary package, whereas executive income protection can allow for up to 80%. Now, the one key benefit for executive income protection that I can see over most of the policies, including group schemes, is that you can include pension contributions and national insurance contributions on top. Now, that's particularly good for high-earning business directors who want to ring fence their pension contributions even if they're off work for an extended period of time. But, as I say, the challenge is with it and you can ensure up to 80% of the total package. The challenge with it typically is that what you're going to find is it's medically underwritten, which could make it harder to put that cover on risk. But once it goes on risk and the plan's been accepted, those terms are guaranteed for the duration of the policy. So, again, slightly more flexibility in the long term with that one. So those are the key differences between the two.

Matt Chapman:

It's a really good question, nathaniel, and I appreciate you asking Matt's Top Tips of the Week. Yes, that's right, folks, it's my Top Tips of the Week, and my discussion with Kiran this week gave him a few ideas for the topics. So I think what I wanted to focus on is a couple of things that really stood out from that conversation. The first was the value of using your BDMs as a resource. Now, that could be BDMs from providers, it could be within networks, for example. The key is understanding that these people have a level of knowledge that maybe you don't, and so it's important to lean on their expertise. So if you aren't certain about something, if you're a little bit misguided, maybe you don't understand the protection, the way you would like to lean on these resources, because these people will be more than willing to support you. They will be more than happy to educate you, because they know that when you understand the product and know how to communicate it to your customers, you are far more likely to recommend it, which means they're going to win businesses' results. So, by all means, lean on those resources.

Matt Chapman:

I think Kiran's points around empowering the client to make informed decisions is a very smart one. It's really important to use IP as the foundation for all of your recommendations. At the end of the day, you can't borrow money without an income. You can't invest in your pension or an investment plan without an income, and so, rather than seeing protection as something that you would bolt onto the side of your recommendations, such as a mortgage or a wealth piece of advice, it's really important to remember that IP can form the foundation enabling you to go and give advice in the mortgage space or in the wealth space with a degree of confidence to know that your client is financially resilient enough to actually be able to deliver on the advice that you're giving, whether that be paying into their mortgage, borrowing money or even paying into their pension funds.

Matt Chapman:

Now, it's really interesting because he talked about getting outside of his comfort zone and, as I've said, using BDM's as a resource for that is a great way of achieving it, because, don't forget, nothing amazing happens inside a comfort zone. In fact, when I start any of my coaching programs, one of the very first things I do is try and win the hearts and minds of the advisors by focusing on what they can do to really see protection differently, and I encourage them to go outside of their comfort zone because, quite frankly, more of the same will always yield more of the same. So, as advisors, we have to continually challenge ourselves. We have to continue to get better. It's the very notion of continuous professional development. So go outside of your comfort zone, learn new things, develop your skills, speak to people like myself, speak to different advisors that you know.

Matt Chapman:

One of the greatest things I can suggest to you is get a protection buddy, ideally someone outside of your organization, somebody who you know is a great advisor and that does things that maybe you would like to do, because you'd be surprised at how helpful that resource will be in helping you to learn how you can improve your protection conversations. But I think the one thing I would say above all else is this your mindset is the most powerful tool you've got. So whether you go into a protection conversation expecting it to be bad or to feel like a sale or whatever you think is going to happen, ultimately that is exactly what is going to happen, because you will drive it and manifest it. If you go into your protection conversations with the right mindset, believing in the importance of what you're doing and the power of protecting your clients, the importance of income and why it's so essential to know you've always got money in the bank each month, then chances are your conversations will take a positive spin. And it's really down to the advisor's mindset. It's often not that the client doesn't want to take things like income protection or other protection products. It's typically down to how the advisor perceives what they're doing.

Matt Chapman:

Now, remember this when you arrange protection, particularly income protection, what you are doing is creating a more resilient household. You are giving that plant a financial lifeline so that when things go wrong, they've always got enough money in the bank to pay for all of those essential bills that need paying. And what you're really doing there is building financial resilience, and that is a wonderful thing to do. It's highly noble and it's a wonderful aspirational thing for clients to perceive. So, instead of seeing protection as a negative thing, instead of thinking it is you're selling insurance contracts, look at income protection as a vehicle, as a tool to help deliver financial resilience and produce great outcomes for your customers. Those would be my top tips, right?

Matt Chapman:

Well, that's it for today's episode. Thank you so much again for listening. We really do appreciate it, as we need your support to grow. So, if you did enjoy today's episode, firstly, please do subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcast apps you don't miss out on an episode. And secondly, please do shout about it, get on your socials, link the podcast up, maybe even leave a review on Apple podcasts, because every little really does help. And it's an exciting time here at the IPTF, as next month, we welcome a new cohort of seven advisors, and we are really looking forward to learning more about them and their thoughts on income protection. As always, for more on the IPTF, you can find them on Twitter or X at the IPTF, or search IPTF on LinkedIn, or even visit their website, iptfcouk.

Matt Chapman:

Right, let's wrap this up, shall we? Let's talk. Ip is produced and edited by the wonderful team at C Studios. Editing is by Joe Miller and Andrew Wibberley and, as always, I'm Matt Chapman. Empower yourself, empower your clients and do you know what? Guys, let's talk IP. Goodbye and thanks for listening.